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RE: Saints Bounty Thread - AsylumGuido - 12-12-2012 06:38 PM
(12-12-2012 05:59 PM)UCSBDirtyBird Wrote: Guido, you can post all of the articles you can find that spin this in a positive light, but this defamation suit is complete garbage. What Ginsberg isn't mentioning is just how he intends to show that Goodell made the allegedly false statements WITH MALICE.
Even if the claims about Cerrullo are true, and he was totally discredited, Roger Goodell has a plausible defense that what he found during his investigation led him to form the opinion he came to when making the original statements. There were statements from witnesses, electronic documentation and complaints from other teams that referenced bounties. Maybe Cerrullo's claims to have seen Vilma holding cash were uncorroborated and thus dismissed by Tagliabue, but looking at all the evidence in context, any competent attorney can argue that a reasonable person could come to the conclusions that Goodell did. This suit by Vilma seems to have little chance to succeed and all the huffing and puffing by Ginsberg about the transcripts of the hearings or the unfairness of the process are utterly useless to show the key issue: Malice. Merely being incorrect about the statements doesn't make it defamation.
Sorry, but you obviously don't understand the reason for the suit. It has nothing to do with money. It really doesn't even have anything to do with winning. It has EVERYTHING to do with making every piece of the evidence and the damning of the supposed witnesses public domain. This will clear Vilma's name and that is all that he wants.
As I have discussed within this very thread with our resident attorney, Dave, there is no way to win the suit because I also believe Goodell believed the lies told by Cerullo so there was no malice. I have said that all along. But, until the public, and the corporations that were supporting Jon Vilma's Haiti Foundation see everything it hurts his ability to help his people and to have a successful life after football. That is what this is all about.
Jon Vilma is extremely intelligent and well respected across the league. He simply wants to clear his name. If Tagliabue were to release all transcripts from the hearings I would guarantee you that Vilma would drop the suit.
RE: Saints Bounty Thread - AsylumGuido - 12-12-2012 06:39 PM
(12-12-2012 05:55 PM)mdrake34 Wrote: Just a funny gif. Thought I'd share.
It was amusing, but who was it? Did I miss it 'cause I'm an old fart?
RE: Saints Bounty Thread - AsylumGuido - 12-12-2012 06:49 PM
Williams testified he wanted to stop bounties
Former New Orleans defensive coordinator Gregg Williams said at an appeals hearing in the Saints bounty case that he tried to shut down the team's pay-for-pain system when the NFL began investigating but was overruled by current Saints head coach Joe Vitt, according to transcripts of the session that were obtained by The Associated Press.
The transcripts say Williams testified that Vitt responded to a suggestion that the Saints abandon the pay-for-pain setup with an obscenity-filled speech about how NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell "wasn't going to ... tell us to ... stop doing what won us the Super Bowl. This has been going on in the ... National Football League forever ..."
Williams and Vitt were among a number of witnesses whose testimony was heard by former NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue. On Tuesday, Tagliabue overturned four player suspensions in the case.
The AP obtained transcripts of Tagliabue's closed-door hearings through a person with a role in the case.
___________________________________________________________
I love how the press puts "bounties" in the headline when the story is about "pay-for-pain", not bounties.
But, it looks like someone made a few bucks selling the transcripts to AP. But, let's see what is actually shared.
RE: Saints Bounty Thread - AsylumGuido - 12-12-2012 06:57 PM
Saints QB Drew Bree s rips Roger Goodell over bounty affair
By Guerry Smith | CBSSports.com
Saints QB Drew Bree s came out firing at NFL commissioner Roger Goodell in his weekly press conference on Wednesday afternoon. Although he was relieved that Paul Tagliabue vacated the bounty-related suspensions and fines for two current Saints players and two former Saints players, he is furious with the entire process.
Here's his opening statement, word for word:
“The dismissal, the vacating of the suspensions, obviously this has been a nine-month ordeal, so I'm happy for our players -- Jonathan Vilma, Will Smith, of course Scott Fujita and Anthony Hargrove, who are no longer with us. I think this was serious vindication. Certainly they've been through a lot and have had to go through a lot.
“Basically, what got overturned was 31 games of suspension, millions of dollars of salary, but most importantly, their reputations. Thank God for the fight and the resolve that all those guys had for justice and to fight for a fair process because that's all that they've ever wanted, that's all that anyone within this organization has ever wanted. The unfortunate thing is I feel like the NFL, through this whole process, including Commissioner [Roger] Goodell, has been all about an outcome as opposed to a fair process. That's all we've wanted this entire time, and that's what we fought for, and finally we got that.
“What I would like to see is a level of accountability on the part of the NFL and Commissioner Goodell in regards to mishandling of this entire situation. We as players hold ourselves and are held to a very strict code of conduct both on an off the field. We have to be accountable to that, as it should be, and I feel like they should be held to the same standards. If someone would just come out in the league office and admit, you know what, we could have handled this situation better, it would go such a long way with both players and fans. I think people would really come around to realize what this thing was all about because right now the league office and Commissioner Goodell have very little to no credibility with us as players and I'd say with a lot of the fans because of the way that this has taken place.
“Like I say, we are held to a very strict code, and that's enforced, as it should be, and we take pride in that as players. I would just like to see them hold themselves to the same level of accountability and also I would love to see a full record of all the testimony from last week being put forth for players, coaches, fans, everybody to see. I think that would tell a lot of the true story about what's been going on this whole time.”
Re: RE: Saints Bounty Thread - juraitwaluzka - 12-12-2012 07:04 PM
(12-12-2012 06:29 PM)AsylumGuido Wrote: It could have blown over in a couple of weeks if Goodell hadn't totally screwed it up. Now it is all on him. His reputation is being butchered. Tagliabue slammed him big time while still trying to "protect the shield".
Yup. I am right there with you, friend, laughing my ass off at Roger Goodell's downfall.
C'mon man just appreciate the humor of it, you have to admit it's pretty funny
RE: Saints Bounty Thread - ATLBound - 12-12-2012 07:08 PM
(12-12-2012 06:49 PM)AsylumGuido Wrote: Williams testified he wanted to stop bounties
Former New Orleans defensive coordinator Gregg Williams said at an appeals hearing in the Saints bounty case that he tried to shut down the team's pay-for-pain system when the NFL began investigating but was overruled by current Saints head coach Joe Vitt, according to transcripts of the session that were obtained by The Associated Press.
The transcripts say Williams testified that Vitt responded to a suggestion that the Saints abandon the pay-for-pain setup with an obscenity-filled speech about how NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell "wasn't going to ... tell us to ... stop doing what won us the Super Bowl. This has been going on in the ... National Football League forever ..."
Williams and Vitt were among a number of witnesses whose testimony was heard by former NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue. On Tuesday, Tagliabue overturned four player suspensions in the case.
The AP obtained transcripts of Tagliabue's closed-door hearings through a person with a role in the case.
___________________________________________________________
I love how the press puts "bounties" in the headline when the story is about "pay-for-pain", not bounties.
But, it looks like someone made a few bucks selling the transcripts to AP. But, let's see what is actually shared.
Maybe Saints nation, including Brees, should rip Vitt for this. If Vitt would have listened way back when, then this season wouldn't have been lost.
Also this is what I consider more evidence from a post I made earlier. We didn't know that Williams wanted to stop and Vitt went in an uproar about it.
The Saints aren't clean here and it may not have been as bad as Goodell made it out to be but those transcripts may only help Vilma and nobody else.
Also don't take focus away from the article to put down
the media about using the word bounty. What do you expect them to use?
RE: Saints Bounty Thread - AsylumGuido - 12-12-2012 07:16 PM
(12-12-2012 07:08 PM)ATLBound Wrote: Maybe Saints nation, including Mr Wobbles, should rip Vitt for this. If Vitt would have listened way back when, then this season wouldn't have been lost.
Also this is what I consider more evidence from a post I made earlier. We didn't know that Williams wanted to stop and Vitt went in an uproar about it.
The Saints aren't clean here and it may not have been as bad as Goodell made it out to be but those transcripts may only help Vilma and nobody else.
Also don't take focus away from the article to put down
the media about using the word bounty. What do you expect them to use?
You are right. I used to be in the media and that was a reason I left.
But, since I posted the link they have added much, much more juiciness to the story.
Former New Orleans defensive coordinator Gregg Williams testified that he tried to shut down the team's bounty system when the NFL began investigating but was overruled by interim Saints head coach Joe Vitt, according to transcripts from appeals hearings obtained by The Associated Press.
According to the transcripts, Williams said that then-assistant Vitt responded to a suggestion that the pay-for-pain setup be abandoned with an obscenity-filled speech about how NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell "wasn't going to ... tell us to ... stop doing what won us the Super Bowl. This has been going on in the ... National Football League forever, and it will go on here forever, when they run (me) out of there, it will still go on."
Williams and Vitt were among a number of witnesses whose testimony was heard by former NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue, who on Tuesday overturned four player suspensions in the case. Tagliabue was appointed by Goodell to handle the final round of appeals. The AP obtained transcripts of Tagliabue's closed-door hearings through a person with a role in the case.
Vitt was a Saints assistant who was banned for six games for his part in the scandal but now is filling in for head coach Sean Payton, who was suspended for the entire season. Williams was suspended indefinitely by Goodell. Others who testified included former defensive assistant Mike Cerullo, the initial whistleblower and considered a key NFL witness.
Transcripts portray the former coaching colleagues, all part of the Saints' 2010 Super Bowl championship, as bitterly disagreeing with one another and occasionally contradicting how the NFL depicted the bounty system.
Vitt, Williams and Cerullo appeared separately before Tagliabue and were questioned by lawyers for the NFL and lawyers representing the players originally suspended by Goodell: Jonathan Vilma, Will Smith, Scott Fujita and Anthony Hargrove.
Tagliabue's ruling found that "Saints' coaches and managers led a deliberate, unprecedented and effective effort to obstruct the NFL's investigation. ..."
The transcripts, which could be entered as evidence in Vilma's pending defamation case against Goodell, include numerous testy, and sometimes humorous, exchanges between witnesses and attorneys — and between Tagliabue and the attorneys.
Offering to take a lie detector test, Vitt challenged versions given by Williams and Cerullo. Vitt vowed to sue Cerullo and described Williams as "narcissistic." He referred to both as disgruntled former employees who were fired, even though, publicly, the Saints said Williams' departure for St. Louis was by mutual agreement. Vitt depicted Cerullo as incompetent and said he missed work numerous times and offered bizarre, fabricated excuses for his absences.
Vitt was asked whether he oversaw Cerullo's attempts to destroy evidence related to bounties, which the NFL determined the Saints sanctioned from 2009 to 2011, with thousands of dollars offered for hits that injured opponents and knocked them out of games.
"No. The answer is no," Vitt said. "Cerullo is an idiot."
Williams referred to the case as "somewhat of a witch hunt." He said he wants to coach in the NFL again, "took responsibility so that nobody else had to," and that Vilma has "been made a scapegoat."
Williams stood by his earlier sworn statement that Vilma pledged a $10,000 bounty on quarterback Brett Favre in the Saints' game against the Minnesota Vikings for the NFC championship. But Williams also said that the performance pool he ran was aimed at team bonding, not bounties, and that he saw a difference between asking players to hit hard legally, which he said he did, and asking them to purposely injure an opponent, which he said no one in the organization condoned.
"The game is about a mental toughness on top of a physical toughness," Williams testified at one point. "You know, it's not golf."
Williams, however, acknowledged he suggested Favre should be knocked out of the game.
"We want to play tough, hard-nosed football and look to get ready to play against the next guy. ... Brett is a friend of mine, and so that's just part of this business," Williams said. "You know, at no time, you know, are we looking to try to end anybody's career."
Williams described player pledges to the pool as "nominal" and said they rarely kept the money they earned, either putting it back in the pool or offering it as tips to equipment personnel. In the case of the large amounts pledged during the playoffs, Williams described it as "air" or "funny money" or "banter," adding that he never actually saw any cash collected or distributed and had no idea what would have happened to the money if Cerullo collected it.
Cerullo testified that league investigators misrepresented what he told them, and that, during the playoffs following the 2009 regular season, he kept track of large playoff pledges on note pads but didn't collect the money.
Cerullo said hits for cash started with Williams telling the staff that "Sean kind of put him in charge of bringing back a swagger to the defense ... so he wanted to brainstorm with us as coaches what we thought we could do. ... At one point in one of those meetings, Joe Vitt suggested (his previous teams) had a pay-for-play, pay-for-incentive program that the guys kind of bought into and kind of had fun with, and, you know, that was his suggestion. At that point, Gregg also admitted that other places he was at, they had the same type of thing. And at that point, Gregg kind of ran with it."
Cerullo described pregame meetings during the playoffs, when the Saints faced quarterback Kurt Warner of the Arizona Cardinals and then Favre.
He said Vitt told players Warner "should have been retired" and "we're going to end the career tomorrow of Kurt Warner." Cerullo also quoted Vitt as saying of Favre: "That old man should have retired when I was there. Is he retiring, isn't he retiring — that whole (thing) is over, you know, tomorrow. ... We'll end the career tomorrow. We'll force him to retire. ..."
Cerullo testified that, once word came that the NFL was investigating, Williams told him to delete computer files about bounty amounts and that Vitt checked on his progress.
Asked what motivated him to come forward as a whistleblower with an email to the league in November 2011, Cerullo replied: "I was angry for being let go from the Saints."
Later, he testified: "I was angry at Joe Vitt, and I wanted to show that I was fired for lying and I witnessed Joe Vitt lying and he still had a job. So, that was my goal of reaching out to the NFL."
The transcripts also portray Tagliabue's command of the proceedings, including his efforts to rein in the lawyers.
"I'm going to intervene much more significantly, going forward," Tagliabue interjected at one point, "because I am extremely concerned that this is getting to be cumulative, confusing and useless, and I do not preside over proceedings that are cumulative, confusing and useless."
There also were lighter moments, such as when Tagliabue announced: "I thought I was going to get through this proceeding only by drinking coffee. I'm getting to the point where I need a Bloody Mary."
RE: Saints Bounty Thread - AsylumGuido - 12-12-2012 07:17 PM
(12-12-2012 07:04 PM)juraitwaluzka Wrote: C'mon man just appreciate the humor of it, you have to admit it's pretty funny
Yes, it does have a degree of comedic irony. Damn you.
RE: Saints Bounty Thread - AsylumGuido - 12-12-2012 08:09 PM
Goodell pretty much tells everyone to screw themselves and he will continue to do what ever he wishes.
On bounty ruling, Goodell thinks “conduct detrimental” should result in discipline
At the conclusion of a quarterly ownership meeting in Dallas, Commissioner Roger Goodell addressed with the media a variety of topics. The biggest, obviously, came from Tuesday’s ruling by former Commissioner Paul Tagliabue in the bounty case.
As to the facts, Goodell says that he and Tagliabue came to the same conclusion. But that’s not entirely accurate. Tagliabue found only that there was enough evidence to support Goodell’s factual determinations; the former Commissioner didn’t make his own decisions as to the facts.
And as to the fairly important factual questions associated the $10,000 bounty offer made by Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma, Tagliabue concluded there is no evidence that tough talk became action.
“We came to the same conclusion as far as the facts were concerned,” Goodell nevertheless said. “Clearly, there was a bounty program in place for three years, despite the denials. Clearly this is something that is considered conduct detrimental. Where I think Commissioner Tagliabue and I disagree is on the fact of discipline. I think when there’s conduct detrimental, there should be associated discipline with that. And that’s where we disagree. But I respect his decision and we’re moving on.”
Goodell is moving on without any inclination to change his approach to player discipline, politely dismissing Tagliabue’s ruling as “non-precedential,” which means that Goodell doesn’t believe he is bound by the ruling in future cases. Tagliabue likely would disagree, based on the portion of his ruling in which he explains that his decision is guided by the “rules of the shop.” Tagliabue would say that his decision necessarily has become subsumed within those rules.
Still, in future cases of this nature (if/when there are any), Goodell made it clear that he will hold responsible not only coaches and management but also players.”My personal view is I hold everyone responsible,” Goodell said. “We have to have a personal responsibility here. And player health and safety is an important issue in this league, and it’s gonna take everyone. We’re all gonna have to contribute to that, whether you’re a Commissioner, whether you’re a coach, whether you’re a player. And we all have to be held accountable for it. So I fundamentally disagree that this is something that lies just with coaches and management. I think that as you I know I took some very significant steps with respect to management and coaches. I do think that that’s important, and I do think their leadership position needs to be considered. But I also believe these players were in leadership positions also.”
Bottom line? The man in the ultimate NFL leadership position plans to change nothing about the way he leads, despite the outcome of the bounty case and the subtle rebuke he received from his predecessor regarding the way that a Commissioner should tackle difficult issues that have lingered for years before suddenly becoming problems.
RE: Saints Bounty Thread - AsylumGuido - 12-12-2012 08:55 PM
What an idiot. Tagliabue gave him an out and he keeps signing his request for a yellow slip.
Roger Goodell says he won't apologize to previously suspended players in New Orleans Saints bounty scandal
NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell said he doesn't owe the four previously suspended players the league connected to the New Orleans Saints bounty scandal an apology during a press conference at the league owners' meetings in Irving, Texas on Wednesday.
Former Commissioner and lead bounty hearings officer Paul Tagliabue vacated all of the suspensions for Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma (season-long suspension) and defensive end Will Smith (four games), along with former Saints defenders Anthony Hargrove (seven) and linebacker Scott Fujita (one) on Tuesday in a surprising turn for the league.
Goodell stood firm about his feelings that the Saints conducted a pay-to-injure scheme during Wednesday's press conference.
"Commissioner Tagliabue said there's no one here who should feel good about their role in this with respect to the Saints," Goodell said. "This is something that people made judgments. None of those people should feel good about those judgments. To have a bounty program where you're targeting players for injury, it's completely unacceptable in the NFL, it's clear that occurred for three years despite all of the denials."
Goodell didn't answer whether or not he has "little to no credibility" with players as Drew Brees suggested earlier Wednesday saying, "One of the things that's very clear here is that there have been denials that a bounty program took place. I think that's conclusively proven. There's no question about that. That's unfortunate for the league in general. ... I'm not going to resist my obligation to do what's right for the game long-term."
Goodell said he and Tagliabue agree that clearly the league views the actions of Vilma, Smith and Hargrove as conduct detrimental. He said where the two disagree was on the discipline aspect. Goodell also said it absolutely doesn't make it more difficult to issue punishments to players in the future.
"I think when there's conduct detrimental, there should be associated discipline with that, and that's where we disagree," Goodell said. "But I respect his decision and we're moving on."
Goodell said it doesn't usurp his power as commissioner with Tagliabue wiping the suspensions away.
"It's part of the collective bargaining process," Goodell said. "As you know, I have the right to appoint a hearing officer. In most cases, I do. I made the conscious decision to do that, and I don't regret that at all."
When asked how Goodell and Tagliabue could come to the same investigative conclusion and yet the penalties were vastly different, Goodell said, "I think his report made it quite clear that he made the management and coaches responsible. My personal view is that I hold everyone responsible.
"We have to have a personal responsibility here. Player health and safety is an important issue in this league, and it's going to take everyone. We're all going to have to contribute to that. ... I fundamentally disagree that this lies with just coaches and management."