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RE: Saints Bounty Thread - ATLBound - 10-26-2012 06:39 PM
And, finally, Vilma's suspension continues to be for the entire 2012 season. He will be allowed to receive the first six game checks he will earn while listed on the "Physically Unable to Perform" list by the Saints. Goodell wrote:
"At our meeting, you confirmed that cart-offs and knockouts were part of a broader program in place among the Saints' defensive players. You confirmed that these terms referred to plays in which an opposing player has to leave the game for one or more plays. You confirmed that, as Coach Vitt testified, an opposing player's need for smelling salts under a trainer's care was a consequence of the kind that the program sought to achieve and for which players were offered cash rewards from the incentive pool.
"I also find that you engaged in conduct detrimental by offering a substantial financial incentive to any member of the defensive unit who knocked Brett Favre out of the Saints' 2009 NFC playoff game against the Vikings. (There is also credible evidence that you made a similar pledge regarding Kurt Warner in the immediately preceding playoff game against the Cardinals, but whether you made multiple pledges of that kind does not matter for purposes of the discipline that I have decided to impose.)
"Both Coach Williams and Mr. [Mike] Cerullo have submitted statements under oath attesting to the fact that you made such an offer at a pre-game meeting of the Saints' defensive unit. I have personally met with both men and have had an opportunity to assess their credibility. I am not persuaded by any suggestion that either Mr. Williams or Mr. Cerullo had an incentive to testify falsely, under penalty of perjury, about such conduct by you or by any other player. With respect to Coach Williams, you and he have repeatedly spoken highly of each other, and nobody has identified any reason why he would make false charges against the Saints or you in particular. In that respect, it is telling that even though he had already left the Saints and signed a contract to be the Defensive Coordinator for the Rams, Coach Williams continued to deny the existence of the program in its entirety, and acknowledged the program and his role in it only after detailed questioning by our investigators.
"Equally important, neither Mr. Williams nor Mr. Cerullo was made aware of the substance of the information provided by the other in the investigation; as one example, each independently volunteered to investigators that the bounty that you pledged with respect to Mr. Favre was in the specific amount of $10,000.
"Furthermore, Coach [Joe] Vitt recalled that players made a number of pledges at that particular meeting and that the meeting ‘got out of hand.' Mr. Fujita informed me that he believes that players made pledges of payments for ‘big plays' at that meeting. Those statements support the written declarations, made under penalty of perjury, by Coach Williams and Mr. Cerullo about the events of that evening. In contrast, your statement that nothing out of the ordinary happened and that no pledges were made by anyone at that meeting is inconsistent with the information provided by other players and is simply not persuasive.
"In addition, as you know, in early 2010 a Vikings player informed Coach Childress that a Saints player had told him that a bounty had been placed on Mr. Favre. There is also video evidence that a Saints player said; ‘Give me my money' immediately after Coach Vitt told the defensive unit (incorrectly) that Mr. Favre's leg had been broken and that he would not be returning to the game.
"I find, based on all of these facts and the entire record described above, that you did, in fact, pledge money to any teammate who injured or disabled Mr. Favre to an extent that he would not be able to continue playing in the playoff game. I recognize that you and some of your teammates have denied that you made such a pledge or claim not to recall your doing so, but I am persuaded, based on the entirety of the record before me, that you did so. And I find that such a pledge or any similar incentive is conduct detrimental."
RE: Saints Bounty Thread - Drathdon - 10-26-2012 06:43 PM
^^^
Great Post.
RE: Saints Bounty Thread - ATLBound - 10-26-2012 07:07 PM
There are a few things that I find difficult to explain for the ones claiming innocence and also some things that need to be cleared up. This may be long so I apologize ahead of time.
1. Fujita was not involved in the bounty as noted by Goodell. He recognizes this and found nothing to contradict Fujita's claims. He punished Fujita for being a defensive leader and not stepping up as a team leader.
2. Hargrove's punishment has been the same throughout the whole process. Don't lie to the commish.
3. Smith's statement is the 2nd mention of the cart-off payments. Just like JDave brilliantly mentioned. Cart-off is a well known term around the NFL and fans of the NFL. Goodell is basically saying it is extremely difficult to believe that cart-offs doesn't mean what cart-offs has always meant in the NFL world.
4. Smith's punishment is is the same punishment as Vilma's minus the 10K pledge.
5. Getting paid when a player needs smelling salts under a trainer's care. This was testified by Vilma AND Vitt. Correct me if I'm wrong but you don't need smelling salts for havign the wind knocked out of you. I'm pretty sure it's used for concussions.
6. Throughout the whole statement to Vilma, Goodell is clearly punishing him for being involved in the program and also for pledging money. He NEVER mentions specific intent to injury. He implies it but it's not mentioned in his reasoning for punishing ANY of the players.
7. Cerullo and Williams submitted the SAME 10K pledge story from Vilma without even knowing what the other person said. Yes, there stories of how the 10K was handed over differed, but they both connected Vilma with the 10K. Please explain how the story of two people who never spoke about the issue matched in an amount as high as that and also the person pledging the amount. AND under oath.
8. Fujita and Vitt mentioned the meeting got out of hand, while Vilma claimed nothing out of the ordinary happened. Very minor detail but also very telling. Why don't you ever talk about their stories differing?
9. Why would a player say " Give me my money" in response to Vitt inadvertently advising the players that Favre's leg was broken???
10. Also the 3 judge panel gave Goodell a way out. Why would he reestablish these punishments if he knew that the investigation was shoddy? By the time of the beginning of October he knew everything that we all knew back in August. There was no different or new news. It was all the same. So why subject himself to this again?
These are questions that have yet to be answered and gives me plenty of reasons to believe that something happened and I may quite possibly have been incorrect in my assessment that the punishments were too extensive. I would appreciate a VALID response to all the questions
RE: Saints Bounty Thread - Aftermath - 10-26-2012 08:24 PM
(10-26-2012 06:39 PM)ATLBound Wrote: And, finally, Vilma's suspension continues to be for the entire 2012 season. He will be allowed to receive the first six game checks he will earn while listed on the "Physically Unable to Perform" list by the Saints. Goodell wrote:
"At our meeting, you confirmed that cart-offs and knockouts were part of a broader program in place among the Saints' defensive players. You confirmed that these terms referred to plays in which an opposing player has to leave the game for one or more plays. You confirmed that, as Coach Vitt testified, an opposing player's need for smelling salts under a trainer's care was a consequence of the kind that the program sought to achieve and for which players were offered cash rewards from the incentive pool.
"I also find that you engaged in conduct detrimental by offering a substantial financial incentive to any member of the defensive unit who knocked Brett Favre out of the Saints' 2009 NFC playoff game against the Vikings. (There is also credible evidence that you made a similar pledge regarding Kurt Warner in the immediately preceding playoff game against the Cardinals, but whether you made multiple pledges of that kind does not matter for purposes of the discipline that I have decided to impose.)
"Both Coach Williams and Mr. [Mike] Cerullo have submitted statements under oath attesting to the fact that you made such an offer at a pre-game meeting of the Saints' defensive unit. I have personally met with both men and have had an opportunity to assess their credibility. I am not persuaded by any suggestion that either Mr. Williams or Mr. Cerullo had an incentive to testify falsely, under penalty of perjury, about such conduct by you or by any other player. With respect to Coach Williams, you and he have repeatedly spoken highly of each other, and nobody has identified any reason why he would make false charges against the Saints or you in particular. In that respect, it is telling that even though he had already left the Saints and signed a contract to be the Defensive Coordinator for the Rams, Coach Williams continued to deny the existence of the program in its entirety, and acknowledged the program and his role in it only after detailed questioning by our investigators.
"Equally important, neither Mr. Williams nor Mr. Cerullo was made aware of the substance of the information provided by the other in the investigation; as one example, each independently volunteered to investigators that the bounty that you pledged with respect to Mr. Favre was in the specific amount of $10,000.
"Furthermore, Coach [Joe] Vitt recalled that players made a number of pledges at that particular meeting and that the meeting ‘got out of hand.' Mr. Fujita informed me that he believes that players made pledges of payments for ‘big plays' at that meeting. Those statements support the written declarations, made under penalty of perjury, by Coach Williams and Mr. Cerullo about the events of that evening. In contrast, your statement that nothing out of the ordinary happened and that no pledges were made by anyone at that meeting is inconsistent with the information provided by other players and is simply not persuasive.
"In addition, as you know, in early 2010 a Vikings player informed Coach Childress that a Saints player had told him that a bounty had been placed on Mr. Favre. There is also video evidence that a Saints player said; ‘Give me my money' immediately after Coach Vitt told the defensive unit (incorrectly) that Mr. Favre's leg had been broken and that he would not be returning to the game.
"I find, based on all of these facts and the entire record described above, that you did, in fact, pledge money to any teammate who injured or disabled Mr. Favre to an extent that he would not be able to continue playing in the playoff game. I recognize that you and some of your teammates have denied that you made such a pledge or claim not to recall your doing so, but I am persuaded, based on the entirety of the record before me, that you did so. And I find that such a pledge or any similar incentive is conduct detrimental."
Let the spin cycle begin
RE: Saints Bounty Thread - TeamPlayer1 - 10-26-2012 08:28 PM
"Furthermore, Coach [Joe] Vitt recalled that players made a number of pledges at that particular meeting and that the meeting ‘got out of hand.' Mr. Fujita informed me that he believes that players made pledges of payments for ‘big plays' at that meeting. Those statements support the written declarations, made under penalty of perjury, by Coach Williams and Mr. Cerullo about the events of that evening. ""In contrast, your statement that nothing out of the ordinary happened and that no pledges were made by anyone at that meeting is inconsistent with the information provided by other players and is simply not persuasive.""
Guido, please note Goodell has testimony from other saints players who were present but is reluctant to name them.
RE: Saints Bounty Thread - Dale4Saul2Red0 - 10-26-2012 09:57 PM
BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT THEY ARE ALL LYING
![[Image: tumblr_m658k4LcGQ1r5mgqz.gif]](http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m658k4LcGQ1r5mgqz.gif)
RE: Saints Bounty Thread - juraitwaluzka - 10-26-2012 10:46 PM
(10-26-2012 02:30 PM)AsylumGuido Wrote: Why is it that you are so enthralled by that disaster?
Just trying to find some other possible meaning to the phrase cart off since apparently some delusional saints fans don't think it means what everyone else in the world thinks it does.
And yes, the looting that went on afterwards was certainly a disaster. The world would have been a better place if those people could have traded places with the true victims of the storm. Or is it your take that those were the 'good folk' of New Orleans?
RE: Saints Bounty Thread - phocis850 - 10-26-2012 11:21 PM
Haha. They have Vilma saying Williams brought the program, but he claims noone participated. How does that work?
RE: Saints Bounty Thread - Aftermath - 10-26-2012 11:39 PM
so, how does this work? we still pretending that none of this happened?
RE: Saints Bounty Thread - ATLBound - 10-26-2012 11:58 PM
(10-26-2012 11:39 PM)Aftermath Wrote: so, how does this work? we still pretending that none of this happened?He normally responds within a matter of minutes and the weekend is coming up when he has more time sooooo I will give 48 hours.