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+--- Thread: NFL: Vilma Suspended 1 year (/Thread-NFL-Vilma-Suspended-1-year)
RE: Vilma Suspended 1 year - AsylumGuido - 05-07-2012 12:01 PM
(05-07-2012 11:38 AM)Falconidae Wrote: Oh, pretty much the whole idea that Payton, Williams and the rest are guilty.
Having a reason to come down hard on somebody for player safety doesn't explain why the Saints would be targeted without evidence. Or why, even if Goodell wanted to punish the Saints for no reason, the NFL's fine lawyers would allow that. Which is what you still haven't explained.
And Payton could indeed sue the NFL, Benson could as well- if he thought Payton was unjustly accused, why wouldn't he file suit against the league?
Payton and Loomis were both suspended for supposedly lying to Goodell.
As for the players, Goodell and the Lawyers probably thought that someone supposedly hearing Vilma say something that he denies vehemently is solid enough proof. They probably thought that the fact that there was a pay for performance pot that players put money in when fined or such and collected from when they recovered a fumble, got a pick, or a sack was proof enough. They probably thought someone supposedly overhearing someone on the Saints saying something about "pay me the money" on the sideline was proof enough.
They probably thought it would float because they felt they didn't need any more than that. Well, maybe the ex-FBI agent that was the lead investigator, Hummel, felt differently. He suddenly "resigns" just as the player penalties are announced.
Why did it take weeks to announce player penalties after the earlier penalties were released? Could it be all the questions about the lack of evidence? The league said 22-27 players were fully involved in the system. Yet, only four were penalized? Were was all of the proof on those other 23? Could it be that all they had on them was the admitted pay for performance?
Anthony Hargrove gave the league a signed declaration that he was involved. That declaration came through the NFLPA. Yet, they say they have seen zero evidence of any player involvement in a pay to injure plot. Well, what was the Hargrove declaration then? The NFLPA knows. It could not have had anything to do with a pay to injure system.
What about Scott Fujita? He was suspended three games for admitting paying money directly to other players for performance (ie fumbles, picks, sacks).
Even lawyers make mistakes. Don't forget how the federal prosecutors screwed up the Roger Clemons' case.
RE: Vilma Suspended 1 year - phocis850 - 05-07-2012 01:01 PM
(05-07-2012 06:18 AM)Beef Wrote: That's not remotely true, Phocis. I'm not making up BS that I know isn't true for the sole purpose of getting attention from it and stringing along false debate. And calling someone else out for doing it is far from trolling.
I hardly think anybody here thinks I'm trolling them. Even Guido doesn't think I'm trolling him, he just think's I'm insulting him. And if we can't even take shots at fans of our biggest rivalry who are obviously here trolling us, then this place has it's priorities out of wack.
He's got you bamboozled.
Posting irrelevant messages in a specific topic is trolling. Your last, feels like 10, messages have brought forth zero contribution to either side of the discussion. You are therefore doing what you claim Guido is doing, except he is contributing to his side of the discussion.
PS, I'm nobody's bitch. I see no problem with someone sticking to one thread regarding the Saints in the last week. I'm just not seeing the problem. You feel like I protect him. I treat Guido the same as all the other members.
RE: Vilma Suspended 1 year - Beef - 05-07-2012 01:18 PM
(05-07-2012 01:01 PM)phocis850 Wrote: Posting irrelevant messages in a specific topic is trolling. Your last, feels like 10, messages have brought forth zero contribution to either side of the discussion. You are therefore doing what you claim Guido is doing, except he is contributing to his side of the discussion.
PS, I'm nobody's bitch. I see no problem with someone sticking to one thread regarding the Saints in the last week. I'm just not seeing the problem. You feel like I protect him. I treat Guido the same as all the other members.
How is my opinion useless? I believe the guy is lieing. I believe he's stringing everyone along to get attention. I believe it's irrational to think like he claims to be.
Just because I refuse to keep going back and forth with the same BS over and over and over, and instead would rather take the approach that he's lieing about how he really feels about this stuff isn't any less of a contribution to the thread. People get called out for lieing all the time here.
RE: Vilma Suspended 1 year - AsylumGuido - 05-07-2012 01:35 PM
(05-07-2012 01:18 PM)Beef Wrote: How is my opinion useless? I believe the guy is lieing. I believe he's stringing everyone along to get attention. I believe it's irrational to think like he claims to be.
Just because I refuse to keep going back and forth with the same BS over and over and over, and instead would rather take the approach that he's lieing about how he really feels about this stuff isn't any less of a contribution to the thread. People get called out for lieing all the time here.
So, in addition to calling me a "fucking moron" you are now calling me a "lier"?
I'll guarantee you I am neither.
RE: Vilma Suspended 1 year - AsylumGuido - 05-07-2012 01:49 PM
Let's see what comes of this.
Vilma’s lawyer makes sweeping request for information
Claiming that the “NFL has refused to provide a single piece of evidence” proving that linebacker Jonathan Vilma allegedly participated in a bounty program, Vilma’s lawyer has submitted with the appeal of Vilma’s one-year suspension a sweeping request for documents and other evidence regarding the claim.
Peter Ginsberg’s letter to Commissioner Roger Goodell, a copy of which Ginsberg has provided to PFT, seeks 17 categories of information.
The request encompasses, among other things, documents proving the existence of a bounty program (such as notebooks, ledgers, etc.), documents showing that Vilma assisted in the establishment of the program, documents showing that Vilma “pledged” to make payments for “cart-offs” and/or “knockouts” and/or injuries inflicted on opponents, documents proving that Vilma “targeted” opponents in a way that violates NFL rules, all witness statements, interview notes, recordings of interviews, and a full list of all witnesses who will present evidence at the appeal hearing.
It’s a very broad request, but it’s a normal part of pre-trial discovery in civil and criminal litigation. If the NFL refuses to comply or provides only summaries of evidence without specifics by contending that the in-house appeal process isn’t a full-blown legal proceedings, Vilma’s eventual legal attack against the outcome of the arbitration could become stronger.
Regardless, it’s only fair for the NFL to make the evidence available to Vilma, so that he can defend himself against the charges. Right or wrong, guilty or innocent, he deserves a chance to test the evidence against him, even if the man who made the decision to suspend him will also be handling the appeal of that decision.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Any bets that the league doesn't pony up with the information?
RE: Vilma Suspended 1 year - papachaz - 05-07-2012 01:50 PM
not only is he a troll, his trusty sidekick comes in every few days and plus ones his posts.....
and i'm not the only one who sees him as a troll. being a Falcons board, it would definitely be a better 'Falcons fan' atmosphere without him here. and to quote Forrest Gump, 'that's all i'm gonna say about that"
RE: Vilma Suspended 1 year - Jesus - 05-07-2012 01:56 PM
Who cares?
The Saints signed his replacement.
RE: Vilma Suspended 1 year - AsylumGuido - 05-07-2012 02:08 PM
Here is the famous declaration. Now you know why Williams and Vitt were suspended. But, this does not confirm that Hargrove was aware of any bounty program. He simply says he said what he was told to say by the coaches.
Anthony Hargrove's declaration to NFL regarding Saints bounty scandal
![[Image: page1.1.jpg]](http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/n9QDxugXTprAoBln72bdFw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYwMA--/http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/ipt/page1.1.jpg)
![[Image: page2.jpg]](http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/bturRy08RZw.nv4DewjD2Q--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYwMA--/http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/ipt/page2.jpg)
![[Image: page3.jpg]](http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/_F2kfuLlyeUk7rrAknIYUQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYwMA--/http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/ipt/page3.jpg)
RE: Vilma Suspended 1 year - pauliwood - 05-07-2012 02:28 PM
(05-07-2012 01:50 PM)papachaz Wrote: not only is he a troll, his trusty sidekick comes in every few days and plus ones his posts.....
and i'm not the only one who sees him as a troll. being a Falcons board, it would definitely be a better 'Falcons fan' atmosphere without him here. and to quote Forrest Gump, 'that's all i'm gonna say about that"
LOL @ the Vchip reference.
Plus 1
RE: Vilma Suspended 1 year - AsylumGuido - 05-07-2012 02:31 PM
And now this from the well known Saints hater, Mike Florio. But, he is saying the same thing I am about the "declaration". Tell me now after reading this that the league and there paid mouth-piece ex-US Attorney have been truthful about what they have released to the media. Now do you realize why they have been so hesitant to release "proof"? Also, any question as to the declaration being released by the NFLPA, probably much to the chagrin of Goodell and his cronies?
Hargrove says Williams, Vitt told him to “just play dumb”
Hargrove says that, when meeting with NFL Security he “denied all knowledge of a bounty or bounty program.” Roughly a week later, Williams asked Hargrove if he stuck to the story. Hargrove said he responded in the way Williams and Vitt had instructed — Hargrove denied any knowledge of a bounty program.
Now for what Hargrove’s declaration doesn’t say. At no point in the declaration does Hargrove admit to any knowledge of the existence of a bounty program. Indeed, at no point does Hargrove claim that he was told to say anything different from what he would have otherwise said, without coaching.
In other words, Hargrove never says he was told to lie. Instead, he says he was told what to say, without commenting on whether he believed what he was told to say to be the truth.
And so, when the NFL said last week in the announcement of the suspensions of Hargrove and three other players that the declaration “established not only the existence of the program with the Saints, but also that he knew about and participated in it,” that statement was blatantly incorrect. And when “independent” counsel Mary Jo White explained in a conference call last week that the “thrust” of the declaration was Hargrove’s acknowledgment of “the nature of the program and his participation in it,” that was blatantly incorrect, too.
It may simply be semantics, given that Williams and Vitt apparently confessed to the existence of a bounty program — which necessarily means that Hargrove had lied. But in his declaration he never says that he lied, and he never admits that the bounty program existed.
The flaw in the NFL’s comments about the Hargrove declaration is subtle, but significant. The plain language of the Hargrove declaration as compared to the NFL’s characterization of it shows that the league is playing a little fast and loose with the facts. Which makes it even more critical that the league stop spoon-feeding the NFLPA and the media characterizations and summaries and conclusions, and that it start coughing up the raw data on which the characterizations and summaries and conclusions were based.
Back when I was practicing law, I’d periodically explain to a jury that, upon encountering a piece of rancid meat in a pot of beef stew, the reaction isn’t to keep eating but to dump it all out. Though the league’s mischaracterization of Hargrove’s declaration may not justify ignoring the full weight of the bounty probe, it means that, at a minimum, someone must have an opportunity to scrutinize all facts, apart from the skewed, self-serving filter the league has applied when talking about the case.