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+--- Thread: NFL: Before final game, Gregg Williams urged Saints to injure 49ers (/Thread-NFL-Before-final-game-Gregg-Williams-urged-Saints-to-injure-49ers)
RE: Before final game, Gregg Williams urged Saints to injure 49ers - Templar - 04-12-2012 07:50 AM
(04-11-2012 01:43 PM)AsylumGuido Wrote: As far as believing what I am posting, I think the truth lies somewhere between my idealistic view and the extreme opposite view that people like Beef choose to believe.
Ah, so you admit that you don't even believe the crap your shoveling.
RE: Before final game, Gregg Williams urged Saints to injure 49ers - AsylumGuido - 04-12-2012 08:02 AM
(04-12-2012 07:50 AM)Templar Wrote: Ah, so you admit that you don't even believe the crap your shoveling.
I believe the best unless I hear/read differently. As my postings, many are articles which can be taken at face value regardless of my opinion.
RE: Before final game, Gregg Williams urged Saints to injure 49ers - AsylumGuido - 04-12-2012 10:52 AM
I have another article which should clear up some of the erroneous thinking. This is by Jeff Duncan of the Times-Picayune. Several of you have commented very favorably on his works that I have linked here before. I can verify he has been very straight forward and professional throughout this whole ordeal. He seldom holds any punches when it comes to the Saints.
Blowing the whistle on the bounty whistleblower is a waste of time
Quote:ORIGIN/BACKGROUND: The initial probe began in 2010 after the Minnesota Vikings alleged the Saints had a bounty program for their NFC playoff games against the Arizona Cardinals and Minnesota Vikings, according to Peter King's March 12 Sports Illustrated story. Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, linebackers coach Joe Vitt and defensive tackle Anthony Hargrove were interviewed by NFL investigators, according to the SI story. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell said the league interviewed "numerous players and other individuals" and at the time everyone "interviewed denied that any such program existed." Goodell also seemed to indicate that the initial whistleblower was a single player, saying "the player that made the allegation retracted his earlier assertions."
The case was reopened late in the 2011 season after the received what it called "significant and credible new information" that suggested there was indeed a "bounty" program in place. League officials notified Saints owner Tom Benson of their findings just before the Saints' NFC playoff game against the Detroit Lions on Jan. 7. The investigation continued through the rest of the playoffs and into the 2012 offseason. League announced its findings on March 2.
As you can see, there was no three year long investigation as some people misrepresent. There was one initial investigation following the 2009 season and it was reopened prior to the Detroit game in January 2012. Nothing was done by the league in the interim.
Quote:EVIDENCE: The NFL report said the investigation was based on "multiple sources." Citing league sources, Mike Freeman of CBSSports.com reported the league had more than one whistleblower.
After re-opening the investigation in late 2011, NFL investigators were given permission by Saints owner Tom Benson to access the club's emails. These emails formed the bulk of the 18,000 documents cited in the NFL report. The 50,000 pages of documents were simply the printouts of the emails.
This verified but I'm assuming the vast majority of the emails were irrelevant to the bounty program. It's unclear whose emails were confiscated and for how long but the NFL said some of them corroborated evidence gleaned from other sources and interviews.
NFL investigators can readily access any email that's been processed on the league's server. Even emails that were deleted can be retrieved.
And these NFL investigators are top-notch sleuths. Most are former FBI or law enforcement agents.
From what I've been able to gather, the information in the emails confirmed the evidence gleaned from outside sources and solidified the NFL's case. The emails were the proverbial nail in the coffin for the Saints.
The exhaustive 50,000 pages of gathered evidence that many claim to be so damning is almost entirely trash. It wasn't the result of extensive investigating, it was all produced in early 2012 by printing out all 18,000 emails that went through the Saints NFL email server.
More than one of you have thrown out the fact that there were 50,000 pages of evidence that supported Goodells case so everything the media is guessing must be true.
None of this means that nothing happened, but it does prove that you can't believe everything you hear and read.
RE: Before final game, Gregg Williams urged Saints to injure 49ers - Beef - 04-12-2012 11:39 AM
I've never said there was 50000 pages of evidence or even 18000. All I've said is if there's ANY evidence that is legit and confirms pay for injury (and even pay for performance, since that's illegal too) and it firmly contradicts anyone in the Saints organizations original statements, proving they lied to Goodell's office, then that's enough, that's all that's needed.
If they found only 1 total document out of the 50000 they reviewed, then that's enough to do the same thing as having 1000 documents.
That said, everything Jeff Duncan said is exactly what most logical people thought to be the case because it was obvious Goodell's office had access to emails after it was let out that Payton got caught lieing when they busted him on the obvious Rodgers $5000 bounty email.
What's funny now is, your previous post quoting that Alan Donnes guy saying the whistleblower fabricated evidence proves to be total bullshit, as expected. Goodell's office gathered all the documents they needed themselves by pulling Saints internal deleted emails off the archives saved on their mainframe. It wasn't some disgruntled coach with an agenda handing them thousands of fabricated documents.
It just goes to show you how gullible you are and how you keep posting shit here that you want to believe and use for your argument, yet it's obvious bullshit.
Payton, GW, Loomis, Vitt, and some players clearly lied to Goodell and this probably why the punishment is what it is moreso than the actual catalyst of bounties. They obviously found evidence confirming bounties, no matter the amount or degree, and when confronting, they were lied to.
And one of these days you're just going to have to accept that this is the case and stop looking for ways to spin it.
Before final game, Gregg Williams urged Saints to injure 49ers - AsylumGuido - 04-12-2012 12:08 PM
(04-12-2012 11:39 AM)Beef Wrote: I've never said there was 50000 pages of evidence or even 18000. All I've said is if there's ANY evidence that is legit and confirms pay for injury (and even pay for performance, since that's illegal too) and it firmly contradicts anyone in the Saints organizations original statements, proving they lied to Goodell's office, then that's enough, that's all that's needed.
If they found only 1 total document out of the 50000 they reviewed, then that's enough to do the same thing as having 1000 documents.
That said, everything Jeff Duncan said is exactly what most logical people thought to be the case because it was obvious Goodell's office had access to emails after it was let out that Payton got caught lieing when they busted him on the obvious Rodgers $5000 bounty email.
What's funny now is, your previous post quoting that Alan Donnes guy saying the whistleblower fabricated evidence proves to be total bullshit, as expected. Goodell's office gathered all the documents they needed themselves by pulling Saints internal deleted emails off the archives saved on their mainframe. It wasn't some disgruntled coach with an agenda handing them thousands of fabricated documents.
It just goes to show you how gullible you are and how you keep posting shit here that you want to believe and use for your argument, yet it's obvious bullshit.
Payton, GW, Loomis, Vitt, and some players clearly lied to Goodell and this probably why the punishment is what it is moreso than the actual catalyst of bounties. They obviously found evidence confirming bounties, no matter the amount or degree, and when confronting, they were lied to.
And one of these days you're just going to have to accept that this is the case and stop looking for ways to spin it.
Now I do agree with almost all of that. There is no doubt something against the rules was going on. No disputing that. But it wasn't as over the top and as evil as many made it out to be. I had heard more than one talking head quote the 50000 pages as proving a detailed accounting of a bounty system was in place. It is a case of people k owing just enough to be dangerous.
RE: Before final game, Gregg Williams urged Saints to injure 49ers - ATLBound - 04-12-2012 12:40 PM
Who cares how over the top or evil it appears to be? What difference does it make in the case of the suspensions? Why is it that u think Goodell's suspensions aren't warranted? What evidence do u have that suggests Goodell went over the top on the suspensions? Of course u would think he went over the top, of course other players involved in simklar programs or part of the brotherhood, especially ones who don't like Goodell would think it was over the top because they are bias and so are u.
He doesn't owe anybody evidence except for the people that matter in making the decisions. Unfortunately that's neither u or me so take everything as is and deal with. U admitted something illegal was done and I'm saying that we will probably never know the extent of it. So any claims on his punishmeny too little, too late, too early, or too much will be purely biased based on your position about the Saints so take everything as is and let the shit go
RE: Before final game, Gregg Williams urged Saints to injure 49ers - Beef - 04-12-2012 12:57 PM
(04-12-2012 12:08 PM)AsylumGuido Wrote: Now I do agree with almost all of that. There is no doubt something against the rules was going on. No disputing that. But it wasn't as over the top and as evil as many made it out to be. I had heard more than one talking head quote the 50000 pages as proving a detailed accounting of a bounty system was in place. It is a case of people k owing just enough to be dangerous.
But you don't know if that's not the case either.
What if of the 50000 emails/documents they reviewed and the 18000 they confiscated/pulled off the deleted archives, they found 1000 or even 100 that show a dozen different people, from players to coaches, to Loomis, to agents to high profile fans or just friends and associates of any of these people, discussing/referrencing putting down money on either good plays, hard hits, knock outs, or cartoffs?
Again, back to the logic meter... Goodell's office isn't going to subject themselves to possible law suits of slander, libel, and false accusations, costing coaches/players/whomever millions of dollars in lost salary and fines and suspensions without having enough to back it all up.
And you can continue to try to minimize it and some how blame Goodell for the media sensationalizing it and supposedly going "over the top" blowing it out of proportion making it worse than it really was, but you're only doing that because you're a biased homer and it's your team and you want to defend them and minimizing the offense is just part of that game.
I'm convinced that GW has been implementing a player/coach/agent/sleezebag whomever wants to participate and offer up money to the pool for pay for good plays/hard hits/knock outs/cartoffs for years and years at every team he's coached at. And I'm convinced that Payton, Loomis, Vitt, and probably more players than we realize all not only knew about it intimately, but participated in it on occasion. Some with good intentions (pay for only good plays) and some with bad intentions (pay for injury), both of which are illegal. And if they didn't actually participate, they turned a blind eye and chose to do nothing to stop it. And then when questioned about it by Goodell's office, they lied about it.
Now I don't care if you don't think this is serious enough for the media to blow up and sensationalize or if the punishment fits the offense. As a biased Saints homer, it's understandable for you to think that way. But you need to realize you're in the minority and that you ARE biased and that it likely IS clouding your judgement as a result. All these things are significantly more serious than you feel and the vast majority outside the Saint's biased world knows this.
Now has probably 80%+ of the teams in the league been doing similar things that the Saints are getting singled out for? Of course, except for the lieing part. And that's the catalyst. However, none of that changes the fact that the Saints got busted doing improper things and lieing. Other teams doing these things does not in any way lessen the fact that the offense was still perpetrated.
RE: Before final game, Gregg Williams urged Saints to injure 49ers - TeamPlayer1 - 04-16-2012 08:32 PM
Ahem, to Sean Payton. "Na, Na,.. Na, Na, Na, Na! Hey, Hey, A, goodbye!!!!!!! I had the right to remain silent...but I did not have the ability.
Geaux Goodell!
RE: Before final game, Gregg Williams urged Saints to injure 49ers - pauliwood - 04-18-2012 11:50 AM
What week is the Saints bye week?
RE: Before final game, Gregg Williams urged Saints to injure 49ers - RFlagg - 04-18-2012 12:09 PM
(04-18-2012 11:50 AM)pauliwood Wrote: What week is the Saints bye week?
Week 6. Vitt will make his interim debut in Week 8. On Sunday night football. In Denver.