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+--- Thread: Falcons: Owens could flourish under Mike Nolan (/Thread-Falcons-Owens-could-flourish-under-Mike-Nolan)
RE: Owens could flourish under Mike Nolan - ATLBound - 01-23-2012 11:00 AM
Dude u put wayyy too much thought into that...lol. I appreciate it but I did say I was joking.
We have brought up many examples of players who first few years were unsuccessful but were good players.
Matter of fact 2 of the players you mentioned Laurent and Houston went on to have pretty good seasons this year. And before there is a twisting of words I didn't say they had great, pro bowl, hof years. They had pretty good years. So don't discount what a different environment will do for a player. Thats what we have....a different environment.
If you put a cast out like James Harrison with Dick Lebeau he becomes a great player.
And as for Owens, he just went thru his 3rd year I believe, not 4th. The 3rd year is when players usually "get it". Anybody who did not see progress from him during the latter part of the season is blinded and still butt hurt by his lack of playing prior. I never said he is starting quality but in this league it seems u need 3 or 4 serviceable CB's. He could be one.
I for one will be more upset if he went to a different team and did well than I would if he stayed as a nickelback and became the same player. Its not like he's our only option as the 2md CB on the team
RE: Owens could flourish under Mike Nolan - RnB - 01-23-2012 11:51 AM
I can't believe people actually get their feelings hurt when we attempt to upgrade personnel and the guys we let go actually do what they are PAID to do when they join a different team. I'll repeat, they are PAID to do that. Yes, a change of scenery could be important, especially if they are signed to be the first or second player at that position. They get more opportunities and their competition at the position is reduced.
We want nothing but star players at every position on the Falcons!
Settling for anything less, while taking into consideration what we can do within the cap, is similar to how everyone bagged on our coaching staff the past four years and wanted new ones, even though we were VERY successful. The difference between myself, and those people, is that I put MUCH more emphasis on the players themselves when they fail to perform. I don't blame anyone more than the guys who are paid to execute their assignments, especially when they fail repeatedly to do so. The best players can work within the scheme and STILL execute, despite any coaching mishaps. I hate to lay blame period (especially in a very team dependent game like football), but the guys actually ON THE FIELD should be the first ones people look at in that regard, not the guys managing them. Yes, it helps to have perfect coordinators; however, there are very few of those at any level of coaching and you can't go on blaming the issue on coaches when its blatantly evident who drops balls, misses tackles, fails to block, or blows a coverage.
Owens is going into his fourth year and has been terrible the majority of the games he has played in, at multiple positions. Even on ST he has missed tackles and made mental errors. Any scrub can make a play or two per season but legit players make way more good plays than bad. Owens has not done that, and I have no reason to believe he will ever do that.
RE: Owens could flourish under Mike Nolan - ATLBound - 01-23-2012 12:30 PM
I personally think the only one whose feelings are hurt is yours but I could be wrong. There is no such thing as being great at everu position...just not possible.
I'm not blaming the coaches for Owens being inept in his 2nd and part of his 3rd year but I'm not oblivious to the fact that proper coaching can go a long way into a players career.
Matter of fact I never even pointed to his Special Teams play this whole time. Obviously you have some sore spot for Owens. I did too after the Bengals gamr, Packers game and some games early on this season, but I did see improvement. Obviously you didn't and thats fine. Agree to disagree. Make our points and move on.
But seriously nobody seems to have their feelings huet except you. You even went into a long rant AFTER I said I was joking.
RE: Owens could flourish under Mike Nolan - RnB - 01-23-2012 01:23 PM
(01-23-2012 12:30 PM)ATLBound Wrote: I personally think the only one whose feelings are hurt is yours but I could be wrong. There is no such thing as being great at everu position...just not possible.
I'm not blaming the coaches for Owens being inept in his 2nd and part of his 3rd year but I'm not oblivious to the fact that proper coaching can go a long way into a players career.
Matter of fact I never even pointed to his Special Teams play this whole time. Obviously you have some sore spot for Owens. I did too after the Bengals gamr, Packers game and some games early on this season, but I did see improvement. Obviously you didn't and thats fine. Agree to disagree. Make our points and move on.
But seriously nobody seems to have their feelings huet except you. You even went into a long rant AFTER I said I was joking.
If you think this is a rant, you are sorely mistaken. No, my feelings aren't hurt. Just because I reply thoughtfully to people and make my opinions very clear does not mean I have some sort of emotional stake in the argument. Ultimately, I will not care if Owens is a Falcon next season because I am positive his play on the field will severely limit his playing time. Hence the "Fuck Owens" comment, which means I believe he is a wasted roster spot.
If you are simply looking to have the last word, you can have it. I have provided plenty of counter-points to every argument for expecting Owens to be better next season. I apologize if you don't agree with me or do not like the fact that I make lengthy, coherent replies to people. Specifically, I try to always reply to anyone who directly replies to me; it is the polite thing to do.
RE: Owens could flourish under Mike Nolan - ATLBound - 01-23-2012 01:56 PM
I appreciate you respondibg but I think you read part of the message and then respond to that and totally discount any other parts.
I said in my last post agree to disagree. When I gave a lengthy and thought out response you claimed people were getting their feelings hurt. You brought that up for some unknown reason when we were having a fine debate on the value of losing or keeping Owens.
I don't mind you not agreeing with me. I love to debate especially when I can see both sides. I just more benefit in keeping Owens then I do in releasing him. But I'm curious as to what counterpoints you have provided, hence the reason for me calling it a rant.
When I mentooned something about James Harrison, Laurent, Houston as examples of different environement breeding different results. Your counterpoint was thats what they sre PAID to do....what?!?!?! Those same players could be paid here as well so I don't understand. We have a different environment here so I don't understand. We have someone who is known as a great defensive coach here so I don't understand.
Only tine we have heard about BVG being a DECENT D coord was in college. We all know college success doesn't mean NFL success. So if you would be so kind to show me the great counterpoints then zi woll gladly concede.
RE: Owens could flourish under Mike Nolan - ATLBound - 01-23-2012 01:57 PM
Sorry using my phone so the spelling is off
RE: Owens could flourish under Mike Nolan - JRid - 01-23-2012 02:50 PM
I agree with Beef about one of the PI. I don't remember two of them, but the one in the endzone was terrible. I honestly couldn't believe that did not get called. Having said that, Owens did seem to play better towards the end of the season so I think he deserves a chance.
What ever happened with that issue with his baby momma? Did those charges get dropped or is there a chance that pops back up?
Does everyone think we should not re-sign Hayden? I know he was injured and has an injury history, but he played pretty good and could come at a good price. He was playing NB which he had never played so he might have played better if he had more experience at NB.
RE: Owens could flourish under Mike Nolan - ATLBound - 01-23-2012 02:56 PM
I like Hayden BUT I don't see the FO resigning him if we resign Grimes. If we don't resign Grimes then I can see him be resigned as insurance ala Brian Williams
RE: Owens could flourish under Mike Nolan - RnB - 01-23-2012 02:56 PM
Suffice to say; you don't understand why players who are paid to be good players are able to do that?
You completely ignored what I said about players changing teams and becoming a more prominent player due to the lack of talent at their position or because they are filling a void created by the loss of a star player. The lack of competition or focus on their particular position (whether the spot they fill is featured prominently in the scheme they go to, or they move from deep on the depth chart of the old team to the top on the new team) is often what makes the "change of scenery" seem to work, not the coaches themselves. In the specific cases you mentioned...
Harrison was filling in for a superstar OLB in Porter and that position was also featured prominently in the Steelers defense; he is definitely a great LB though. Laurent Robinson went from our 3-4th WR (and injured after his rookie year), to a mediocre stint with the Rams, to the 2-3rd WR on a team with a solid offense in Dallas. Houston went to a team with a fairly dominant DLine (this makes CBs look better than they actually are) and good young defensive core, yet he still gave up plenty of passes while alot of his picks were gift wrapped.
The point I am trying to make is that its very rarely the coaches which directly improve players and more often that they improve for completely different reasons. The defensive scheme sometimes plays a role in that, and by extension the DC sometimes plays an indirect role. I am by no means saying that great defensive coaches don't know how to get the most out of their personnel, only that those cases, especially turning a scrub into a star, are few and far between.
As for why you think BVG wasn't successful as our DC, I don't have a clue. Ignoring what he did for our franchise the four years he was here (go look up our defensive numbers like points allowed, turnover differential, rushing defense, etc the years BVG was here) is well within your right. Its also within your right to say he is a failure at the NFL level. The success we had as a team the past four years directly contradicts that line of thought though. However, what I said about BVG was that he is a great teacher and motivator; I didn't even mention whether or not he was "successful" as an NFL DC while he was with our team, you snuck that in somehow.
RE: Owens could flourish under Mike Nolan - JDaveG - 01-23-2012 03:03 PM
(01-23-2012 02:50 PM)JRid Wrote: I agree with Beef about one of the PI. I don't remember two of them, but the one in the endzone was terrible.
To be fair to Owens, being close enough to the receiver to commit PI is a vast improvement
But I really did see improvement from him. I think we give him another year based on physical gifts and apparent improvement in recognition and assignment.