Owners have enough cash to sit out 2011, even after court ruling.

[The Falcon Jedi]

Roger Goodell is maybe the worst NFL Commissioner ever. This mess is largely his fault.

[cooperbh]

(03-18-2011 10:08 PM)Beef Wrote:  I think you're either being naive or just biased towards the players so exagerating a bit.

We all know that the players sign contracts to get paid $x amount of money. That's the set amount THEY agreed upon to do their job. And if they perform up to standards & don't fuck up, they get to keep getting paid. And with the full understanding that if they don't do their job up to expectations, they can be fired just like anybody else in any other job (thank goodness for no guaranteed contracts).

Now we also know that a portion of league profits are pooled & then divided evenly among the teams & set aside by the player union/NFLPA to subsidize health benefits, insurance, stipends for related expenses, retiree pension, & miscellaneous NFLPA overhead. Which by the way, under the previous CBA, when combined with player salaries which continue to rise by nearly 6% EVERY YEAR, was MORE than what the owners were left with to pay for all their overhead and make a profit. And yes, paying thousands of employees, from coaches to hotdog vendors, along with practice facilities, the GA Dome, rookie housing, air/ground trasportation, maintenance for everything, & ridiculous amounts of liability insurance, it's impossible to grasp it's enormous expense.

The previous CBA was drawn up before the player salary curve went exponentially nuts. Not to mention benefits like insurance, which have increased about 5x inflation rates in the past 10 years must be considered. Add to that, 2 down markets & a full blown recession, the pension fund & any other retirement programs are surely way under-funded by now.

The owners have been more than generous. First of all, they have every right in the world to make as much money as they can. Player salaries are grossly out of wack & only going higher. And "benefits" are exactly just that, BENEFITS. They are not a mandate. They are not God's given right. They are a courtesy & FREE, on top of their exorbitant salaries. Yet the players continue to take benefits for granted & are too stupid to understand how much they really fucking cost.

And oh yeah, I haven't even mentioned taxes.

Second, the players ARE asking for more. They want money set aside for increased health benefits & a bigger pension for retirees. Mind you, some of these "retirees" are 40 year old guys who just got done getting paid millions for a bunch of years. And they obviously can't ask for more on their existing salary contracts because those are set. But if you don't think they will ask for more once the books are open & it's time to negotiate/re-negotiate their contracts, you're being naive. And once they know exactly how much the "limit" is, like I said, the owners don't have any negotiating power at this point & the players/agents will want the max or we'll have hold-outs left & right.

The owners aren't the bad guys here unless you're some liberal nut who thinks people who are good at making a ton of money are evil. They players have it made. Even the guys making league minimum. They don't pay for shit, they have the best benefits in the universe, & even at league minimum they are in the top 20% of income makers in the country. And I don't care that they only get to do this job for a short time. Most people have to work for 45 years & don't make anywhere near what these guys make in a fraction of the time. And the fact it's dangerous is not our problem, it's their choice to do it.

And now we got some 82 year old liberal as hell judge making the decisions. The owners are fucked. I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to go without the 2011 season completely just to really prove their point & make the players really understand how good they have it & how badly they take it all for granted.

I had a feeling it was only a matter of time before the Michelle Bachmann speak reared its head. Please save the "liberal nut" routine for your next tea party rally.

Anyway, when did anyone ever imply that the owners don't have a right to make as much money as they can? Of course they do. Or did you mean to say that the owners have a right to always make enormous profits year after year, regardless of the economy or the number of reckless and ill-conceived business decisions they make?

To paraphrase a statement you made: The fact that being an NFL owner carries some financial risk is not our problem. It's their choice to do it.

[cooperbh]

(03-18-2011 08:32 PM)Penumbra Wrote:  Fascinating to read the blamers of the union, blaming the owners. Seems to be a majority blaming the owners.

In perspective,...without the players the NFL could go on after a strike season. Without the owners the NFL would not exist. It has been said by Smith without the players the NFL would not exist.

All those rich white owners can give up more money. So let's go after it while we can. We have a majority of public sentiment in our corner and we're in such a bad economy,...well not us on welfare,...that we can villify the owners as selfish and as the bad guys. The evil, rich owners who are in essence slave owners as Adrian Peterson said.

Smith is an angry man. And I will repeat,...we will miss the great Gene Upshaw.

"Rich white owners?" "Not us on welfare?" "An angry man?"

Well, it's no mystery what your agenda is.

[Beef]

(03-19-2011 06:03 PM)cooperbh Wrote:  I had a feeling it was only a matter of time before the Michelle Bachmann speak reared its head. Please save the "liberal nut" routine for your next tea party rally.

Anyway, when did anyone ever imply that the owners don't have a right to make as much money as they can? Of course they do. Or did you mean to say that the owners have a right to always make enormous profits year after year, regardless of the economy or the number of reckless and ill-conceived business decisions they make?

To paraphrase a statement you made: The fact that being an NFL owner carries some financial risk is not our problem. It's their choice to do it.

Clearly my statements hit home with you & hurt your feelings. Way to take the low road.

[cooperbh]

(03-19-2011 07:26 PM)Beef Wrote:  Clearly my statements hit home with you & hurt your feelings. Way to take the low road.

Thanks for paving it for me.

So, are you going to address the point I made or just stick with hurling ad hominems like you usually do?

[Beef]

(03-19-2011 08:43 PM)cooperbh Wrote:  Thanks for paving it for me.

So, are you going to address the point I made or just stick with hurling ad hominems like you usually do?

Right, because your reply with the oh so unsubtle crack at me that equates what I said to some ultra right-wing nutjob was "addressing the point I made".

Why are you taking it so personal that I called some old judge a name? Obviously you feel some guilt by association. Or maybe it's because someone mentioned being in favor of free market capitalism & that just makes you so angry?

Lets make something clear here so I don't get blamed for this & receive a warning. I didn't insult you. You insulted me.

And you didn't really have a point to address. If anything, you didn't address what I said. You picked one little part out & made an absurd, ignorant, unsubstantiated, pure generalization about the owners being "reckless" & making "ill-conceived business decisions". As if you had a freaking clue.

GASP! We're in a recession & those guys have the GALL to make PROFITS!!!!???? THEY'RE EVIL! Shame on them!! Why don't they think of all the starving children & homeless!!??

So here, I'll address your comment directly: YES, the owners have the right to make enormous profits year after year, regardless of the economy. And you don't get to make up biased agenda driven reasons to claim they're "reckless" or "ill-conceived" in the process.

[Passepartout]

Goodell seems to be a wanted man by the players. As you can ask Kevin Burnett about it!

[cooperbh]

(03-19-2011 09:24 PM)Beef Wrote:  So here, I'll address your comment directly: YES, the owners have the right to make enormous profits year after year, regardless of the economy. And you don't get to make up biased agenda driven reasons to claim they're "reckless" or "ill-conceived" in the process.

That's interesting. So, why do the owners of other businesses - like, say, Lehman or Circuit City - not have this inalienable right to always make enormous profits like NFL owners do? Personally, I've always operated under the ideal that everyone in this country has the opportunity to be financially successful, not the right. I guess I am naive.

And I don't have to make up reasons to claim certain owners' actions are reckless or ill-conceived. That enormous Six Flags Over Football Field in Texas whose construction went half a billion dollars over budget and whose box office sells tickets for seats that don't even exist is a veritable monument to such behavior. There's Wayne Weaver, who had the brilliant idea to bring an NFL franchise to one of the smallest media markets in the nation. And don't even get me started on Dan Snyder, who has singlehandedly torpedoed his team's popularity since taking over ownership. Finally, just two words: Al Davis.

But, hey - why should any of those owners pay a financial price for such ineptitude? They have a right under natural law to perpetually rake in windfall profits, according to their supporters.

[The Falcon Jedi]

Goodell is horrible. He is speaking from the Owners side, all he wants is to generate more revenue at Players expense. His idea for an 18 game schedule was ridiculous, and his policies on Player Safety have done nothing other than cost Players lots of money in fines. He has turned the NFL into an over-marketed flag football league.

[Beef]

(03-20-2011 02:14 PM)cooperbh Wrote:  That's interesting. So, why do the owners of other businesses - like, say, Lehman or Circuit City - not have this inalienable right to always make enormous profits like NFL owners do? Personally, I've always operated under the ideal that everyone in this country has the opportunity to be financially successful, not the right. I guess I am naive.

And I don't have to make up reasons to claim certain owners' actions are reckless or ill-conceived. That enormous Six Flags Over Football Field in Texas whose construction went half a billion dollars over budget and whose box office sells tickets for seats that don't even exist is a veritable monument to such behavior. There's Wayne Weaver, who had the brilliant idea to bring an NFL franchise to one of the smallest media markets in the nation. And don't even get me started on Dan Snyder, who has singlehandedly torpedoed his team's popularity since taking over ownership. Finally, just two words: Al Davis.

But, hey - why should any of those owners pay a financial price for such ineptitude? They have a right under natural law to perpetually rake in windfall profits, according to their supporters.

I don't even get what you're complaining about at this point. None of it makes sense. There's nothing preventing Lehman or Circuit City or any company from making as much money as they physically can. There's no "profit cap" in existance, so I don't know WTF you're talking about.

This is America, the land of the free. Everyone has the right to do as they wish inside the confines of the law, including making as much money/profit as they possibly can. "Opportunity" is purely subjective & has nothing to do with personal freedoms.

If an opportunity presents itself, I have the choice/freedom (aka. right) to pursue it to it's limits. And if those limits result in enormous profits, well welcome to America & free market capitalism. At the same time, if that opportunity results in no profit or total losses, well thats the risk I took & i'm 100% responsible.

This is how the NFL owners work too. Some make a lot of money, some don't. Some may even lose money on occasion. Those decisions are their responsibility, period. If Jerry Jones loses money because he made a bad decision about the new stadium, it's his pocketbook that's effected. If Al Davis is an idiot & runs his team into last place every year & he loses money too, it's his pocketbook that's effected. If Arthur Blank sells out every seat in a new stadium & rakes in a billion dollars in profit, great freaking job on his part.

And if you think that none of these owners "pay a price for ineptitude", then you are very naive. I never said they didn't so I don't know where you even came up with this point. These teams are businesses, like any other.

As to how this all relates to the CBA negotiations, I stand by my opinions. The players have contracts that they agreed to be paid & BENEFITS are generous free GIFTS given to them above & beyond their salaries. The players are taking everything outside their salaries for granted. On top of that, the only purpose for them to want to know every penny the owners make is so they can take away the owners leverage & put negotiations in their favor when the time comes.

I don't fault the players for wanting to make as much money as they can. I'd sound hypocritical if I did. But since their financial risk & overall responsibilities are on a scale that's massively dwarfed by comparison to the owners, I think they're grossly overpaid already. And their attempt to manipulate this situation so they can eventually make even more just pisses me off. Especially when they also take so much for granted.