Off Topic: Concerning Christianity and America

[Radical]

I want to try to divert the discussion we're having in the other thread here, and return the thread to its original topic or close it altogether.

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Personally, here's what I want.

1. America stops throwing huge amounts of monetary and military support towards Israel. While it can be argued that there are strategic reasons to supporting Israel(which I disagree with from a ideological standpoint), the fanaticism towards Israel comes from the Christian Zionist movement, which ties into Dispensationalism. This militaristic belief in empowering and supporting Israel at all costs has not only put us at odds with the world, but has cost American lives at their insistence in trying to play God with history.

2. The repealing of all blue laws. No law should restrict the sale of any kind of commodity for any religious reason. I understand the purpose of having a secular day of rest, even though it coincides with the Christian Sabbath, but things like the restriction of alcohol sales, car sales, hunting, on Sunday have no Constitutional merit. It is the religion forcing its morals upon others. As another member put it, it is equivalent to Sharia Law, though obviously not as harsh.

3. The return of national motto to the original Latin phrase, E pluribus unum(Out of Many, One), and the removal of the line, "Under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance. Both of these were inserted as the behest of Christians who overstepped the Constitutional boundaries provided by the First Amendment. The Establishment Clause states that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, this includes the laws passed that changed our national motto and Pledge of Allegiance.

[JDaveG]

(12-19-2011 04:02 PM)Radical Wrote:  I want to try to divert the discussion we're having in the other thread here, and return the thread to its original topic or close it altogether.

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Personally, here's what I want.

1. America stops throwing huge amounts of monetary and military support towards Israel. While it can be argued that there are strategic reasons to supporting Israel(which I disagree with from a ideological standpoint), the fanaticism towards Israel comes from the Christian Zionist movement, which ties into Dispensationalism. This militaristic belief in empowering and supporting Israel at all costs has not only put us at odds with the world, but has cost American lives at their insistence in trying to play God with history.

2. The repealing of all blue laws. No law should restrict the sale of any kind of commodity for any religious reason. I understand the purpose of having a secular day of rest, even though it coincides with the Christian Sabbath, but things like the restriction of alcohol sales, car sales, hunting, on Sunday have no Constitutional merit. It is the religion forcing its morals upon others. As another member put it, it is equivalent to Sharia Law, though obviously not as harsh.

3. The return of national motto to the original Latin phrase, E pluribus unum(Out of Many, One), and the removal of the line, "Under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance. Both of these were inserted as the behest of Christians who overstepped the Constitutional boundaries provided by the First Amendment. The Establishment Clause states that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, this includes the laws passed that changed our national motto and Pledge of Allegiance.

I agree with 1 and 2. The third I also agree with in principle, but am not nearly as passionate about, because I don't see either as an establishment (though I think both are probably unwise at best).

[Radical]

(12-18-2011 06:35 PM)mcsupersport Wrote:  The very nature of a democracy or republic is by and large that the majority enforces their beliefs on everyone. Whether you think Brothels are ok, or drugs or riding motorcycles without helmets they are all decisions that taken are most often away by our(American) society. Morals of the society will dictate the laws, and most morals are shaped by Beliefs(ie religion in Christians case). Many think nothing about forcing people to have Health Insurance, wearing a motorcycle helmet, buckling their seat-belt in a car, or outlawing drugs like cocaine, but will turn around and have an issue with no alcohol sales on Sunday because it is religious. There is no difference at all in any of those I listed, they are all basically for "someone's own good" whether it is their immortal soul or health doesn't really change the force involved. If you were arguing that Government shouldn't be able to force actions at ALL, I would have more respect for your argument, instead you seem to have an issue of one belief system over another as the "root cause" of the force.

First off, I don't specifically have an issue with Christianity, it's simply the topic at hand. I believe entirely that the individual should have a choice unless that choice leads to the detriment of society through financial burden(unpaid medical bills) or safety(drunk driving). I can break it down for you.

Brothels - Fine, as long as it is properly regulated. No forced prostitution, properly taxed, and preventative measures to ensure STDs don't start flying around.

Drugs - Fine, as long as it is properly regulated and taxed to hell and back. No selling to minors, illegal for pregnant mothers to use, and tax money goes into rehabilitation centers.

Helmets on motorcycles - Not having a helmet forces society to spend more money taking care of you when you end up in a vegetative state/coma. This constitutes a drain on society. Health insurance and buckling up falls under this as well.

The difference is that our nation's finances and physical safety of others are tangible, while questions of the immortal soul are not. Once you cross into that, you open things up for literally any whack job religious laws to be implemented under the guise of protecting your "immortal soul." Why not also ban all sexual acts unless it's between wife and husband? If we go by Mormonism, why not start the mass-deportation and/or execution of all people with dark skin? It's simply bad logic, no matter how seemingly inconsequential the actual law is itself. Not all sects of Christianity ban the consumption of alcohol, or even forbid it on Sunday. I believe JDaveG can attest to this.

[JDaveG]

(12-19-2011 04:40 PM)Radical Wrote:  First off, I don't specifically have an issue with Christianity, it's simply the topic at hand. I believe entirely that the individual should have a choice unless that choice leads to the detriment of society through financial burden(unpaid medical bills) or safety(drunk driving). I can break it down for you.

Brothels - Fine, as long as it is properly regulated. No forced prostitution, properly taxed, and preventative measures to ensure STDs don't start flying around.

Drugs - Fine, as long as it is properly regulated and taxed to hell and back. No selling to minors, illegal for pregnant mothers to use, and tax money goes into rehabilitation centers.

Helmets on motorcycles - Not having a helmet forces society to spend more money taking care of you when you end up in a vegetative state/coma. This constitutes a drain on society. Health insurance and buckling up falls under this as well.

The difference is that our nation's finances and physical safety of others are tangible, while questions of the immortal soul are not. Once you cross into that, you open things up for literally any whack job religious laws to be implemented under the guise of protecting your "immortal soul." Why not also ban all sexual acts unless it's between wife and husband? If we go by Mormonism, why not start the mass-deportation and/or execution of all people with dark skin? It's simply bad logic, no matter how seemingly inconsequential the actual law is itself. Not all sects of Christianity ban the consumption of alcohol, or even forbid it on Sunday. I believe JDaveG can attest to this.

We have alcohol in Church every Sunday. And we have no problem with recreational drinking outside of Church so long as it is not a fasting season (like now, or Lent, etc.). Drunkenness is another issue entirely, however.

Re: helmet and seatbelt laws, there's another reason they are tolerable as an infringement on freedom. We operate cars and motorcycles on the public roadways, so the government -- within reason -- has a sufficient interest to regulate what happens on those roadways. I would be completely against a law that required me to wear a helmet to operate a motorcycle on my own property, but once I get on a public roadway, I concede a lot of my rights to the government. I have to pay a tax to have the car registered, I have to be licensed, etc.

[Radical]

(12-19-2011 04:49 PM)JDaveG Wrote:  Re: helmet and seatbelt laws, there's another reason they are tolerable as an infringement on freedom. We operate cars and motorcycles on the public roadways, so the government -- within reason -- has a sufficient interest to regulate what happens on those roadways. I would be completely against a law that required me to wear a helmet to operate a motorcycle on my own property, but once I get on a public roadway, I concede a lot of my rights to the government. I have to pay a tax to have the car registered, I have to be licensed, etc.

Had this in mind, but I couldn't put it any better.

[papachaz]

(12-19-2011 04:40 PM)Radical Wrote:  Brothels - Fine, as long as it is properly regulated. No forced prostitution, properly taxed, and preventative measures to ensure STDs don't start flying around.

ok enough is enough. as a married man, it already costs me enough to get laid, i'm NOT paying taxes on pussy too dammit

[Radical]

(12-19-2011 06:59 PM)papachaz Wrote:  ok enough is enough. as a married man, it already costs me enough to get laid, i'm NOT paying taxes on pussy too dammit

Then I guess you'll have to do things the old fashioned way with an old rag and chloroform.

[Drathdon]

So you're saying we can count on you to vote for Ron Paul, Radical?

Glad to hear it.