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ATLBound · 05-12-2012, 01:22 PM

(05-11-2012 05:27 PM)AsylumGuido Wrote: How do you know what her arrangement is with the NFL? There is a big difference between lying and telling someone what they want to hear. But the fact is that the declaration does not state what it was implied to have stated prior to it becoming public. Regardless of how you want to interpret it many, many others with no dog in the fight agree that the league misrepresented the declaration. That's not just me saying that.

Here is Mary Jo White's position

"We also took the step of engaging Mary Jo White, the former United States Attorney for New York, at an early stage of the investigation in order to ensure both the fairness of the process and the reliability of the information on which our decisions were made in the Saints matter," Goodell wrote. "Following a process that she has frequently undertaken on a wide range of matters in recent years, Mrs. White provided an independent view of the investigation from the perspective of an experienced and highly respected law enforcement officer.

juraitwaluzka · 05-12-2012, 01:29 PM

(05-12-2012 12:44 PM)Beef Wrote: Actually, I have more questions for you, Guido.

Can you explain a "rational" reason why Hargrove would try to lessen his punishment by throwing Williams and Vitt under the bus for something that didn't exist?

How would someone directing you to "tell the truth" possibly lessen your punishment?

And if Hargrove isn't trying to get his punishment reduced, then why does the declaration even exist?

And if the declaration is so innocent of a cover-up and it's simply about 2 coaches directing him to tell the truth, then why is he so upset that it went public?

I'm not expecting an answer although I would love to hear an attempt at one. Spin or not, the silence is a telling as it is deafening. There have been multiple opportunities to answer these questions but they have been dodged at every turn, just like a politician. Maybe he doesn't want to answer you because you are a "Potty Mouth" Tongue

but others have asked the same.

Interestingly, I met a Saints fan the other night and we had a good conversation. This guy bleeds black and gold, he's from New Orleans, still lives in the region and has been a fan all of his life. As such, he doesn't like the Falcons much but he was honest too, similar to McMVP on AFMB (an Eagle's fan and the model for rival posting as far as I'm concerned).

His take was basically that where's there's smoke there's fire, and while many other teams may have done the same types of things the Saints are the ones that got caught and are getting what they deserve (in his mind because they were stupid enough to get caught and lie to the commish) but he feels like the team is good enough to where they will still be successful. No delusions, no conspiracies. He may be right he may be wrong but there were no signs of sudden onset Alzheimer's, everything he said was at least plausible.

So, I couldn't resist and had to tell him about this thread and gave him Guido's position on the matter. His response? He laughed then said "Yeah, well every fanbase has their nut jobs".

Guido, all I can say is that you are no McMVP. Your opinion on the matter is one thing but the constant little barbs that are intermixed are just plain smack talk even if it is put in "polite" form. Even if you aren't trolling the end result is not much different than the Saints trolls at AFMB. You have the right to be here per the rules of the forum and I don't think you should be kicked out but I also believe that this place would be a much better place without you.

Dale4Saul2Red0 · 05-12-2012, 01:32 PM

I really wish he'd come over to FantasySharks and try to bring his drivel into a forum that isn't centered around one team but football talk in general. It'd be fucking epic.

juraitwaluzka · 05-12-2012, 04:18 PM

(05-12-2012 01:32 PM)Dale4Saul2Red0 Wrote: I really wish he'd come over to FantasySharks and try to bring his drivel into a forum that isn't centered around one team but football talk in general. It'd be fucking epic.

Ah yes that would be a town hall worth visiting. Tickets and popcorn please.

AsylumGuido · 05-12-2012, 04:41 PM

(05-12-2012 12:20 PM)Beef Wrote: So you can't come up with a clever spin tactic I guess.

At least answer this question. If Williams and Vitt are allegedly just directing Hargrove to tell the truth, as you claim is the case, then why is Vitt so adamant that he never told Hargrove anything? If the declaration really wasn't about a cover-up, why would Vitt have a problem with what Hargrove said?

I'd also like to know if you understand the difference between being hired as an independent consultant and being hired to fully represent, and if you understand why a consultant has no incentive to lie while a representative does.

I don't care about any of that. The issue on the table right now is player punishment and the document gives absolutely no proof, as Goodell and White claimed, that players engaged in donating and collecting money directly related to injury. It also did not state that Hargrove admitted to participating himself.

That is the issue. You are dwelling on something totally different.

But, to answer your questions, let's say Williams and Vitt knew that Hargrove was being called in for questioning. They knew it was going to be about claims that the Saints were engaging in a bounty program. They knew they weren't, but they were engaging in a pay for performance program that is against the rules.

Now, it can be interpreted that monies paid for picks or sacks could loosely be called bounties. They were concerned that even in telling the truth Hargrove may make some statement that could be taken in the wrong light. Lawyer commonly coach a witness telling them exactly what to say. They aren't telling them to lie, but to tell the truth in the most efficient way.

Could Williams and Vitt not have been trying to run a little damage control trying to keep a pay for performance program as being interpreted as something quite worse? It even makes more sense with Williams claiming those ******** at the league have been out to get him for years.

It sounds to me like it is very plausible that they were just "getting their ducks in a row" or all "getting on the same page" so they wouldn't say something that could be taken out of context.

Unfortunately, that appears to have happened anyway with the email, for sure, and also with the declaration.

AsylumGuido · 05-12-2012, 04:45 PM

(05-12-2012 01:32 PM)Dale4Saul2Red0 Wrote: I really wish he'd come over to FantasySharks and try to bring his drivel into a forum that isn't centered around one team but football talk in general. It'd be fucking epic.

Oh, I have been discussing this on several team forums around the league. The general consensus is that the Saints got the shaft and Goodell needs to show some proof.

***phocis850*** · 05-12-2012, 05:34 PM

http://m.nfl.com/news/09000d5d8290ca49/l...may-16-30/

Haha, White is gonna slap you and everyone else in the face. Read the end of that article... its solid.

AsylumGuido · 05-12-2012, 05:48 PM

(05-12-2012 05:34 PM)phocis850 Wrote: http://m.nfl.com/news/09000d5d8290ca49/l...may-16-30/

Haha, White is gonna slap you and everyone else in the face. Read the end of that article... its solid.

That's old news, phocis. That was part of her statement when she said that the Hargrove declaration "acknowledged" all of the things that it didn't once exposed to the media and public by the NFLPA.

She also stated in the same release that the email from Ornstein also proved player participation. But, once again, it didn't. I have no doubt she convicted criminals with less evidence given they had incompetent representation. Innocent people have been convicted many times.

AsylumGuido · 05-12-2012, 05:50 PM

Oh, but I do appreciate you posting that so I didn't have to.

Thanks!!

ATLBound · 05-12-2012, 06:41 PM

(05-12-2012 05:48 PM)AsylumGuido Wrote: That's old news, phocis. That was part of her statement when she said that the Hargrove declaration "acknowledged" all of the things that it didn't once exposed to the media and public by the NFLPA.

She also stated in the same release that the email from Ornstein also proved player participation. But, once again, it didn't. I have no doubt she convicted criminals with less evidence given they had incompetent representation. Innocent people have been convicted many times.

That article is the epitome of my argument the wholr finger-lickin' time. Lol.

Well the last paragraph at least referring to Mary Ho White's role and how she "thinks." I'm not even a lawyer and I could get that. Her role was can this be used to prove in a court of law. Guess what? It can. That's the problem tho. The grievances filed are not to deny the bounty. The grievances are filed so that Goodell doesn't have the ability to punish. Look at it veru closely Guido and that is your and the Saints players ONLY saving grace right now.

If they aren't able to get whomever to agree that Goodell can't punish then they are screwed and even if they are then they will be considered guilty in the public eye and got off on a technicality.

At this point there is no need to argue did they or didn't they. The focal argument right now is Can Goodell punish them based on the CBA rules. If that don't go thru, then the players are screwed.