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AsylumGuido · 05-09-2012, 04:03 PM

(05-09-2012 03:45 PM)TeamPlayer1 Wrote: There is truth, lies and obfuscations involved in this issue and the Saints are on board with anything other than the truth.

Many of us are just demanding the truth in the form of proof.

AsylumGuido · 05-09-2012, 04:12 PM

(05-09-2012 02:59 PM)Beef Wrote: Oh, I'd also like to point out that Chris Carter, today on ESPN, fully admitted that pay for injury bounty programs existed and he participated and even started and paid players to hurt other players. He wouldn't mention any other players that he knows participated (except for Bill Romanowski) in pay for injury bounties, but he said there were a ton.

He said it was rampant in his day and he is absolutely positive it was just as rampant up until the recent crackdown.

So this pretty much shoots down Guido's contention that pay for injury bounties simply don't exist and that he doesn't at all believe any player anywhere would ever pay for someone else to be injured.

You have many of the facts wrong about this story. Carter said early in a game Romo told him that he was going to "end his career". Carter didn't say anything about Romo being a bounty hunter. Carter said he went into the huddle and told the linemen to target Romo and he'd buy them dinner.

That was the whole story. I heard it live on Mike and Mike.

Drathdon · 05-09-2012, 04:12 PM

You know after some of these current players retire, the real truth will come out. I just hope they bust the conspiracy before then. Conspiracies never hold... there is always a weak link, and the media will find it.

The bounties were not the problem... that is what Aints fans miss. The NFL gave them a chance to stop. The cover-up and continuation (and arrogance of Williams to think he was above the NFL, as did the other Aints) is why they are paying the price now.

Hargrove likely did this because he knew they were busted and was hoping to avoid penalty by coming clean. His penalty now is why he is trying to about-face. If the NFL offered everyone a chance to come clean without penalty, you'd have rats leaving the ship in droves.

Luckily they haven't done that, so the Aints locker room is a distrustful place where everyone is trying to cover their ass and hope no one snitches. I love it!

Drathdon · 05-09-2012, 04:16 PM

Carter is foolish if he thinks asking a teammate to protect him from an aggressive defender is a bounty. He's just looking for headlines and more $$ for himself... his only concern.

Otherwise every QB and RB buying their linemen watches and such would be a bounty too. Here's a clue CC... it's not.

RockHoward · 05-09-2012, 04:18 PM

(05-09-2012 04:03 PM)AsylumGuido Wrote: Many of us are just demanding the truth in the form of proof.

Proof is a different standard of evidence then the truth. Many criminals get off for crimes they actually committed due to a lack of proof. That is a standard we chose in our society, but not all societies adhere to this standard. Also not all people equate "not guilty" with "innocent" as you are doing.

By demanding proof you are saying "I don't care about the truth. I just want to know if I can punished for this in a court of law with its higher standard of evidence." This is the same "angle shooting" stance that Payton took when he told his underlings to clean up their act so that they couldn't get caught out on this stuff. He specifically did not say to stop, just to make sure there was no evidence sitting around that could be used against them.

IMO the Saints as an organization is all about "what can we get away with" and that particular brand of ethics is evident in certain Saints fans as well.

TeamPlayer1 · 05-09-2012, 04:25 PM

(05-09-2012 04:03 PM)AsylumGuido Wrote: Many of us are just demanding the truth in the form of proof.

It will turn out that in the new CBA the only form of truth is Goodell's view and it will stand. But we can all be glad that the Saints players are keeping this issue on the front page and that the players are putting this in the front of their minds.

ATLBound · 05-09-2012, 04:33 PM

(05-09-2012 02:42 PM)Beef Wrote: Hargrove, paragraph 8:

"Williams and Vitt repeatedly stated that they 'care about me, and... if we all stay on the same page about this, it will blow over.' They told me that when the NFL asked me about any bounty or bounty program, I should 'just play dumb.'"

Clearly there he states Williams and Vitt asked him to play dumb. And clearly it's Guido who needs to re-read the declaration again since he didn't even know this was in there and thought sombody else just wrote it in a headline.

Also, if the truth is that no bounty or program even ever existed, why does he suggest that there could be more than one page? (Obviously meaning that there could be a different perspective between them)

It either exists or it doesn't. There is no gray. And there shouldn't be more than one page. So saying you have to "stay on the same page" would be completely irrational. Unless of course there is more than one page. Which clearly means that a bounty and program had to have existed for there to be 2 different perspectives or more than one page.

I didn't see a response to this while I saw a response to other things so I'm bumping because I was asking the same question in the locked thread

AsylumGuido · 05-09-2012, 05:17 PM

(05-09-2012 04:33 PM)ATLBound Wrote: I didn't see a response to this while I saw a response to other things so I'm bumping because I was asking the same question in the locked thread

The declaration does not confirm that any Saints player either paid money or collected money to intentionally injure another player. You can interpret what it could imply, but it is not evidence at all that any Saints player either paid money or collected money to intentionally injure another player. That is what the players are accused of doing. More and more people beyond Saints fans are wanting the ironclad proof that the league claimed to have. Personally, I believe we have already seen what they deemed to be that proof.

AsylumGuido · 05-09-2012, 05:19 PM

(05-09-2012 04:12 PM)Drathdon Wrote: You know after some of these current players retire, the real truth will come out. I just hope they bust the conspiracy before then. Conspiracies never hold... there is always a weak link, and the media will find it.

The bounties were not the problem... that is what Aints fans miss. The NFL gave them a chance to stop. The cover-up and continuation (and arrogance of Williams to think he was above the NFL, as did the other Aints) is why they are paying the price now.

Hargrove likely did this because he knew they were busted and was hoping to avoid penalty by coming clean. His penalty now is why he is trying to about-face. If the NFL offered everyone a chance to come clean without penalty, you'd have rats leaving the ship in droves.

Luckily they haven't done that, so the Aints locker room is a distrustful place where everyone is trying to cover their ass and hope no one snitches. I love it!

But, there is nothing to snitch about. No distrust necessary.

AsylumGuido · 05-09-2012, 05:22 PM

Just tweeted by Larry Holder of CBS Sports:

Peter Ginsberg, @JonVilma51's lawyer, on NFL-hired outside counsel Mary Jo White’s comments on the bounty evidence: “I’m actually very disappointed. When Mary Jo White was the U.S. Attorney in the eastern district of New York, I worked for her and know her quite well. Back in those days, Mary Jo would have never believed that for an accused to ask for evidence and to have a fair forum for defending his or her rights was a ‘red herring.’ But now that she’s been hired by the Commissioner and sitting in a significant law firm instead of a department of justice office, she apparently seems to be backing up the Commissioner that we don’t have the right to know exactly what it is we’re being accused of or have a right to face the people who are accusing Jonathan.”