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**papachaz** · 12-13-2012, 08:23 PM

(12-13-2012 07:14 PM)ATLBound Wrote: Understand his position though. He is the authoritative figure to them. If you lie or withhold information from a your supervisor or even a cop, then more consequences apply if the truth was told or if the authority was listened to in the first place.

ok I'm too lazy to scroll back through the last several pages, but there was a post about the pats and another team, 2007 and 2009 I think it said, both being fined $25,000 for basically running the same kind of a program that the saints were accused of.

what that basically tells me is this, if they had come clean when first accused/approached, they would most likely have had a similar fine, and that would be that. BUT, they lied and tried to hide it, and continued on. call it pay for pain, pay for performance, bounty, whatever the hell you wanna call it. bottom line, if they had come clean, admitted to it then, they would most likely paid a $25K fine and that would have been the end of it....but did they? no, and to me, that's what got them the penalties they got. I do agree with the philosophy that Vilma and Smith were the defensive leaders and should have stepped up and at the very least questioned it continuing.

my thoughts on Hargrove is he just did what Vitt told him to do, but still, be a man and do what you know is right.

As for them thinking what they were doing wasn't wrong??? I call bullshit, I was taught as a child that telling a lie to cover up something someone is accusing you of doing is wrong. If they had come clean in the initial investigation 3 years ago, none of this would have happened

cooperbh · (This post was last modified: 12-14-2012 02:06 AM by cooperbh.)

"For the reasons set forth in this Final Decision on Appeal, I affirm the factual findings of Commissioner Goodell... I strongly condemn the misconduct of the Saints’ coaches found by Commissioner Goodell and confirmed in the record developed during this appeal... Moreover, there is evidence in the record that suggests that Commissioner Goodell could have disciplined a greater number of Saints’ players for the events that occurred here. This sad chapter in the otherwise praiseworthy history of the New Orleans Saints casts no executive, coach or player in a favorable light."

-Paul Tagliabue, December 11, 2012

All I needed to hear. Thanks for the verification, Tags.

AsylumGuido · 12-14-2012, 10:15 AM

(12-14-2012 02:03 AM)cooperbh Wrote: "For the reasons set forth in this Final Decision on Appeal, I affirm the factual findings of Commissioner Goodell... I strongly condemn the misconduct of the Saints’ coaches found by Commissioner Goodell and confirmed in the record developed during this appeal... Moreover, there is evidence in the record that suggests that Commissioner Goodell could have disciplined a greater number of Saints’ players for the events that occurred here. This sad chapter in the otherwise praiseworthy history of the New Orleans Saints casts no executive, coach or player in a favorable light."

-Paul Tagliabue, December 11, 2012

All I needed to hear. Thanks for the verification, Tags.

What else did you think he say? He was in no way partial nor independent. He based his "findings" on the word of two fired ex-employees, one of whom, Mike Cerullo, was repeatedly discredited throughout his testimony.

I would suggest you withhold your judgement until this reaches a "real" court of law where lying can land a witness in jail.

ATLBound · 12-14-2012, 10:20 AM

(12-13-2012 08:23 PM)papachaz Wrote: ok I'm too lazy to scroll back through the last several pages, but there was a post about the pats and another team, 2007 and 2009 I think it said, both being fined $25,000 for basically running the same kind of a program that the saints were accused of.

what that basically tells me is this, if they had come clean when first accused/approached, they would most likely have had a similar fine, and that would be that. BUT, they lied and tried to hide it, and continued on. call it pay for pain, pay for performance, bounty, whatever the hell you wanna call it. bottom line, if they had come clean, admitted to it then, they would most likely paid a $25K fine and that would have been the end of it....but did they? no, and to me, that's what got them the penalties they got. I do agree with the philosophy that Vilma and Smith were the defensive leaders and should have stepped up and at the very least questioned it continuing.

my thoughts on Hargrove is he just did what Vitt told him to do, but still, be a man and do what you know is right.

As for them thinking what they were doing wasn't wrong??? I call bullshit, I was taught as a child that telling a lie to cover up something someone is accusing you of doing is wrong. If they had come clean in the initial investigation 3 years ago, none of this would have happened

I agree

AsylumGuido · 12-14-2012, 10:30 AM

(12-14-2012 10:20 AM)ATLBound Wrote: I agree

The players were never told to stop the pool. Why would they stop something that nobody in football saw as being a big deal. Why didn't the Falcons leaders stop the pool they had in 2007? These type of pools have always been commonplace in NFL locker rooms. The players saw nothing wrong with it.

cooperbh · 12-14-2012, 11:32 AM

(12-14-2012 10:15 AM)AsylumGuido Wrote: What else did you think he say? He was in no way partial nor independent. He based his "findings" on the word of two fired ex-employees, one of whom, Mike Cerullo, was repeatedly discredited throughout his testimony.

I would suggest you withhold your judgement until this reaches a "real" court of law where lying can land a witness in jail.

Judgement has been already been rendered. As a result, the Saints' season was torpedoed and their franchise left shamed and in disarray. Nothing will change that. Ever.

Anyway, keep posting your silly little articles if it lessons the sting. I've gotta go get geared up for the playoffs your team won't be participating in anytime soon. Ciao.

ATLBound · 12-14-2012, 11:43 AM

(12-14-2012 10:30 AM)AsylumGuido Wrote: The players were never told to stop the pool. Why would they stop something that nobody in football saw as being a big deal. Why didn't the Falcons leaders stop the pool they had in 2007? These type of pools have always been commonplace in NFL locker rooms. The players saw nothing wrong with it.

If you say so, y'all are not totally innocent in this. Whatever pool, if any, the Falcons may have had in 2007 wasn't stopped because we weren't told to by the commish. The big, bad wolf....the egotistical commish gave y'all a chance to stop whatever it is y'all were doing and y'all didn't. Plain and simple. Everybody in the NFL knows that a performance pool is against the rules. And you know that, so no other teams situation is the same as the saints. The reason why is because although everybody may have had a performance pool, nobody had the luxury of being told to stop before being punished. That is why y'all should have stopped. Don't be so naive to think they didn't know there was something wrong with it.

Also if the Falcons had a performance pool in 2007, it for damn sure didn't work.

AsylumGuido · 12-14-2012, 12:15 PM

(12-14-2012 11:43 AM)ATLBound Wrote: If you say so, y'all are not totally innocent in this. Whatever pool, if any, the Falcons may have had in 2007 wasn't stopped because we weren't told to by the commish. The big, bad wolf....the egotistical commish gave y'all a chance to stop whatever it is y'all were doing and y'all didn't. Plain and simple. Everybody in the NFL knows that a performance pool is against the rules. And you know that, so no other teams situation is the same as the saints. The reason why is because although everybody may have had a performance pool, nobody had the luxury of being told to stop before being punished. That is why y'all should have stopped. Don't be so naive to think they didn't know there was something wrong with it.

Also if the Falcons had a performance pool in 2007, it for damn sure didn't work.

You got my reply all wrong. papachaz said that Vilma and Smith were at fault because they didn't stop the pool on their own. How could they do that when they were never told to stop it? Yes, the management should have told the players to stop it even if it wasn't what Goodell was referring to back in 2010. For that they are at fault. You can't put the blame on the players at all because they had performance pools everywhere they had ever been. papachaz added this:

Quote:As for them thinking what they were doing wasn't wrong??? I call bullshit, I was taught as a child that telling a lie to cover up something someone is accusing you of doing is wrong. If they had come clean in the initial investigation 3 years ago, none of this would have happened

The players have all said that they were never informed about any of this until well after the end of the 2012 playoffs. They didn't lie to cover anything up because, like I said, they didn't think they were doing anything out of the norm. They knew nothing about any investigation two years before. The only one that knew anything was Hargrove and he said he was told to tell the investigators that there were no bounties. That was not a lie. There were no bounties. Hargrove never returned to the Saints after that and thought it was all over until he heard about it the same way as all of us.

***phocis850*** · 12-14-2012, 12:21 PM

Lol. That's funny. Our 2007 season was lacking any performance at all.

Give me a break Guido. You can't justify that betting is OK because someone else is doing it. In the end, everyone knows that you can't throw money out there for anything. It happens but the saints were told to stop and didn't. They refused to obey the law of the land and were made an example of.

Things weren't perfect in that process but someone somewhere participated and didn't stop. You guys deserve this season and lesson. Vilmas reputation is shot and there is no cleanup process that could fix it. He brought that on himself. Take the issue quietly and behind closed doors and then you don't smear your own name in the process. Now everybody associates the bounty program with Vilmas name and not GWs. It proves how Mich of a dumbass he really is.

I'm tired of hearing about this crap. Its been all year with the same crap over and over. As the admin I can't just ignore the thread and have to come in a check it every now and then.

Today markes the last day of discussion of this wretched mess.

Us Falcons fans can now enjoy our future playoff game and discuss Falcon football.

Guido, post links to discussions on other forums about this subject. AFT members are free to go elsewhere to fulfill their bounty needs.

To the AFT members enjoying this thread, I do apologize for putting a close to this discussion. I am sure Guido will post some great links for you to follow along.

Thanks.

AsylumGuido · 12-14-2012, 12:32 PM

(12-14-2012 12:21 PM)phocis850 Wrote: Lol. That's funny. Our 2007 season was lacking any performance at all.

Give me a break Guido. You can't justify that betting is OK because someone else is doing it. In the end, everyone knows that you can't throw money out there for anything. It happens but the saints were told to stop and didn't. They refused to obey the law of the land and were made an example of.

Things weren't perfect in that process but someone somewhere participated and didn't stop. You guys deserve this season and lesson. Vilmas reputation is shot and there is no cleanup process that could fix it. He brought that on himself. Take the issue quietly and behind closed doors and then you don't smear your own name in the process. Now everybody associates the bounty program with Vilmas name and not GWs. It proves how Mich of a dumbass he really is.

I'm tired of hearing about this crap. Its been all year with the same crap over and over. As the admin I can't just ignore the thread and have to come in a check it every now and then.

Today markes the last day of discussion of this wretched mess.

Us Falcons fans can now enjoy our future playoff game and discuss Falcon football.

Guido, post links to discussions on other forums about this subject. AFT members are free to go elsewhere to fulfill their bounty needs.

To the AFT members enjoying this thread, I do apologize for putting a close to this discussion. I am sure Guido will post some great links for you to follow along.

Thanks.

Performance pools do not translate into success. Vilma's name is getting cleaner as the truth comes out.