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ATLBound · 12-13-2012, 02:28 PM

(12-13-2012 02:24 PM)AsylumGuido Wrote: This is exactly why Vilma is not going to let it go. There is no way to convince everyone of the truth because not everyone has the capacity to understand, but if even one person sees the truth for what it is, it is worth the effort.

Don't mind what Vilma is doing

AsylumGuido · 12-13-2012, 02:33 PM

(12-13-2012 02:22 PM)RnB Wrote: It is unfortunate that the Saints were made an example of. There is no taking it back now, especially in the world of public opinion or sports media. No outcome will ever completely absolve the Saints. The main issue I have always had with this thing is that they were told to cease and desist, in an official manner, and failed to do so. If ANY franchise is told that their locker room betting/pools are becoming a problem (for whatever reason), and they say "Fuck you, they aren't a problem", the NFL has every right to take action against them. Period.

At that point, no matter how prevelant locker room pools are across the league, the Saints organization fucked up. In my estimation, they got what they deserved for defying the league office. Its dirty as hell that the FO and coaching staff of the Saints put themselves in that position, dragging all their players along with them, but the fact remains that it DID happen. There DO need to be punishments levied and no amount of legal nonsense in the world will change that.

Whether the players need to be punished is up for debate, as Tag's ruling noted. I do not think Goodell stepped over his bounds or levied harsher punishments than were deserved. I think he was doing his job, which is to protect the NFL on behalf of the Owners.

They were asked if they were placing bounties on opposing players and they told Goodell that they weren't. Goodell told them if you are you must stop. They weren't so there was nothing to stop. They had a performance pool, but that is not at all the same as putting bounties on players for intentional injury.

Two years later an ex-employee fabricates stories about the Saints intentionally targeting players for injury and goes to the league with it. Goodell gets all bent out of shape and feels he was lied to. He wasn't. There was never any bounties. He screwed up.

Yes, the Saints should have stopped the harmless pool, but it did not warrant a full year suspension of a head coach when no head coach in the history of the game had ever even been suspended a single game. Goodell screwed up big time. He has done more harm to the NFL than any little performance pool could have achieved.

RnB · (This post was last modified: 12-13-2012 04:58 PM by RnB.)

(12-13-2012 02:33 PM)AsylumGuido Wrote: They were asked if they were placing bounties on opposing players and they told Goodell that they weren't. Goodell told them if you are you must stop. They weren't so there was nothing to stop. They had a performance pool, but that is not at all the same as putting bounties on players for intentional injury.

Two years later an ex-employee fabricates stories about the Saints intentionally targeting players for injury and goes to the league with it. Goodell gets all bent out of shape and feels he was lied to. He wasn't. There was never any bounties. He screwed up.

Yes, the Saints should have stopped the harmless pool, but it did not warrant a full year suspension of a head coach when no head coach in the history of the game had ever even been suspended a single game. Goodell screwed up big time. He has done more harm to the NFL than any little performance pool could have achieved.

The terminology and punishments are entirely subjective. The inner workings of the case are a mess of he said, she said. Your outlook as a Saints fan directly impacts your feelings about any of the subjective qualities. The same goes for a Falcons fan when considering whether or not the Saints deserved what they got.

I am not here to discuss personal feelings. Looking at the circumstances objectively suggests that the Saints knew what the league was referring to and continued operating in the same manner. All other considerations are moot at that point, and then we move into whether the NFL acted fairly.

You are of the opinion that Goodell did not act fairly and that the NFL is to blame for the Saints having a failure of a season. I am of the opinion that Goodell did what he thought was in the best interest of the NFL.

Leave it at that and stop trying to portray the Saints franchise as a victim. They are not the victim, they are the offender. They defied the NFL, were investigated, and then punished. All the other nonsense about comparing the Saints to other franchises, in terms of whether pay for performance (or injury, or bounties, or whatever the fuck terminology you prefer to use) is an institutionalized problem in the NFL, is meaningless. Maybe now that other franchises understand that the NFL takes it very seriously (thanks Saints), locker room money antics will be less relevant in the future.

Trust me, most Falcons fans are not foreigners in the realm of outside forces decimating a franchise. We understand that the Saints got completely fucked over because of this. Some people are pleased as punch that it happened (I am not one of them, even though I believe the NFL did not overstep its bounds at all); it goes with the territory of being a Falcons fan. Just like trying to defend the Saints no matter how obvious it is that it is indefensible goes with the territory of being a Saints fan.

ATLBound · 12-13-2012, 03:16 PM

(12-13-2012 02:33 PM)AsylumGuido Wrote: They were asked if they were placing bounties on opposing players and they told Goodell that they weren't. Goodell told them if you are you must stop. They weren't so there was nothing to stop. They had a performance pool, but that is not at all the same as putting bounties on players for intentional injury.

Two years later an ex-employee fabricates stories about the Saints intentionally targeting players for injury and goes to the league with it. Goodell gets all bent out of shape and feels he was lied to. He wasn't. There was never any bounties. He screwed up.

Yes, the Saints should have stopped the harmless pool, but it did not warrant a full year suspension of a head coach when no head coach in the history of the game had ever even been suspended a single game. Goodell screwed up big time. He has done more harm to the NFL than any little performance pool could have achieved.

I disagree. They knew what the heck he was talking about. His full understanding of what was going may have been fabricated when he came to them in 2009, but there's no reason for Vitt to say what Williams transcripts says he says or for anybody to tell Hargrove to deny anything.

AsylumGuido · (This post was last modified: 12-13-2012 05:30 PM by AsylumGuido.)

(12-13-2012 03:16 PM)ATLBound Wrote: I disagree. They knew what the heck he was talking about. His full understanding of what was going may have been fabricated when he came to them in 2009, but there's no reason for Vitt to say what Williams transcripts says he says or for anybody to tell Hargrove to deny anything.

This is in response to both your and RnB's posts.

Let's wait to see what Vitt says himself in the transcripts instead of what Williams said he said. But, in February 2010 when the league first came to the Saints the whole entire issue was a claim of a bounty on Brett Favre lodged by Brad Childress. It had nothing to do with any performance pool. At that time performance pools were extremely common place in the NFL and just the two prior years the Packers (2007) and the Patriots (2008) were hit with $25,000 fines, and no more, for running one. The Saints were not placing bounties on opposing players. Payton knew nothing about any bounties on opposing players because there were none.

The whole case was closed by the league until November of 2011 when Cerullo, frustrated with not being able to get a job in the NFL, fabricated the story of bounties on players during 2009 and brought it to the league. During the resulting investigation Goodell saw the existence of a performance pool, which was readily admitted to by both Vitt and Williams, and put two and two together and came up with seven and claimed it was the bounties reported by Cerullo. He was pissed off because he felt he was lied to.

It had nothing to do with protecting the shield. It had everything to do with an egotistical maniac feeling slighted. Goodell ignored very clear evidence that there were no real bounties and he levied punishments that were many, many times more severe than any ever in the history of the league. This wasn't about the NFL or player safety. This was all about Goodell having to prove that he was omnipotent and no one would ever defy him.

What he did was not right. Tagliabue admonished him in his statement saying Goodell delivered punishments that in no way fit the crime.

AsylumGuido · 12-13-2012, 05:37 PM

Another thing about the possibility of Vitt being the ringleader from a friend:

Everyone acknowledges that the system started in 2009 -- Vitt had been there since 2006. If he was the ringleader, why wouldn't it have started in 2006? Why did it start when Williams showed up in 2009 -- and Williams has a history of running the same type of program at every coaching stop he has made in the NFL for many years? It's laughable that Williams was a doe-eyed innocent trying to stop the program but Vitt wouldn't have it. Williams was the one who created and presented all those Powerpoint slides and presentations. Williams was the one who gave the pregame speeches. He is just covering his ass again.

AsylumGuido · 12-13-2012, 05:43 PM

And here comes Vitt's rebuttal as expected:

Saints' Vitt denies Williams' claim

New Orleans Saints interim coach Joe Vitt issued a stern denial regarding former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams' claim that Vitt insisted on keeping the team's bounty program in place despite an NFL investigation.

"We knew the scuds were going to come, we knew there would be a leakage of information," Vitt said Thursday at his press conference inside the Saints' practice facility in Metairie, La. "It was like 60 Minutes, the thing ticking, and here it comes -- it's here."

Vitt, Williams and alleged whistleblower and former Saints employee Mike Cerullo, a key NFL witness, were separately debriefed in front of former commissioner Paul Tagliabue during the appeals hearings that ultimately led to bounty suspensions for four players -- Jonathan Vilma, Anthony Hargrove, Will Smith and Scott Fujita -- being overturned.

Vitt denies being asked whether he discouraged Williams from ending the bounty program, but Vitt was made aware of the allegation.

"In my testimony, I was never asked that question," he said. "Whether or not I wanted to keep a bounty program going, I was never asked that question. I was told that accusation was made, and I volunteered at the time in front of commissioner Tagliabue to take a lie detector test that afternoon to deny that allegation. So if anybody is keeping a scorecard here, let's take a look at this.

"I said back in March in my first interview with press and the media, that at no point in time did any of our players cross the white line with the intent of injuring, maiming or ending the career of another player, that never took place."

Vitt was suspended for the first six games for knowingly allowing and coordinating the program. He was named interim head coach because Payton was suspended for the entire 2012 season. Williams, who left in January to join the St. Louis Rams and serve as defensive coordinator, was suspended indefinitely in March.

"I've testified before a federal judge with my hand on the bible," Vitt said. "Now what's going to happen now is all participants, all these accusations are going to go to a federal court, and they're going to go to a judge. And from top to bottom, she's going to hear testimony. And the penalty for perjury with her is going to be jail time. So let's stop.

"That's the scorecard right now. Our players have already been cleared by three bodies of work -- Judge Berigan, a three-(judge panel) and commissioner Tagliabue.

"Myself, (head coach) Sean (Payton) and (GM) Mickey (Loomis) didn't have that right. Now, until the day I die -- and I think I'll be able to find six pallbearers -- I'm going to defend the intent of our football players. I'm going to defend the integrity of this organization and the high moral standards to which our owner holds us all to. And that's just the truth. That's just the truth."

_________________________________________________________

Yup, he said that Gregg Williams lied to Tagliabue and will eventually have to face a real court where his lies will put him in jail.

ATLBound · 12-13-2012, 06:08 PM

(12-13-2012 05:29 PM)AsylumGuido Wrote: This is in response to both your and RnB's posts.

Let's wait to see what Vitt says himself in the transcripts instead of what Williams said he said. But, in February 2010 when the league first came to the Saints the whole entire issue was a claim of a bounty on Brett Favre lodged by Brad Childress. It had nothing to do with any performance pool. At that time performance pools were extremely common place in the NFL and just the two prior years the Packers (2007) and the Patriots (2008) were hit with $25,000 fines, and no more, for running one. The Saints were not placing bounties on opposing players. Payton knew nothing about any bounties on opposing players because there were none.

The whole case was closed by the league until November of 2011 when Cerullo, frustrated with not being able to get a job in the NFL, fabricated the story of bounties on players during 2009 and brought it to the league. During the resulting investigation Goodell saw the existence of a performance pool, which was readily admitted to by both Vitt and Williams, and put two and two together and came up with seven and claimed it was the bounties reported by Cerullo. He was pissed off because he felt he was lied to.

It had nothing to do with protecting the shield. It had everything to do with an egotistical maniac feeling slighted. Goodell ignored very clear evidence that there were no real bounties and he levied punishments that were many, many times more severe than any ever in the history of the league. This wasn't about the NFL or player safety. This was all about Goodell having to prove that he was omnipotent and no one would ever defy him.

What he did was not right. Tagliabue admonished him in his statement saying Goodell delivered punishments that in no way fit the crime.

Who wrote this? And whomever he is is extremely pissed. We all know this thing was about lawsuits towards the league, so yes this was about player safety. It wasn't about Goodell being omnipotent or on some random power trip. Whomever the author is lost all credibility by saying that.

ATLBound · 12-13-2012, 06:10 PM

(12-13-2012 05:37 PM)AsylumGuido Wrote: Another thing about the possibility of Vitt being the ringleader from a friend:

Everyone acknowledges that the system started in 2009 -- Vitt had been there since 2006. If he was the ringleader, why wouldn't it have started in 2006? Why did it start when Williams showed up in 2009 -- and Williams has a history of running the same type of program at every coaching stop he has made in the NFL for many years? It's laughable that Williams was a doe-eyed innocent trying to stop the program but Vitt wouldn't have it. Williams was the one who created and presented all those Powerpoint slides and presentations. Williams was the one who gave the pregame speeches. He is just covering his ass again.

I don't think Williams is innocent by any means, but I don't think Vitt is either.

ATLBound · (This post was last modified: 12-13-2012 06:18 PM by ATLBound.)

(12-13-2012 05:43 PM)AsylumGuido Wrote: And here comes Vitt's rebuttal as expected:

Saints' Vitt denies Williams' claim

New Orleans Saints interim coach Joe Vitt issued a stern denial regarding former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams' claim that Vitt insisted on keeping the team's bounty program in place despite an NFL investigation.

"We knew the scuds were going to come, we knew there would be a leakage of information," Vitt said Thursday at his press conference inside the Saints' practice facility in Metairie, La. "It was like 60 Minutes, the thing ticking, and here it comes -- it's here."

Vitt, Williams and alleged whistleblower and former Saints employee Mike Cerullo, a key NFL witness, were separately debriefed in front of former commissioner Paul Tagliabue during the appeals hearings that ultimately led to bounty suspensions for four players -- Jonathan Vilma, Anthony Hargrove, Will Smith and Scott Fujita -- being overturned.

Vitt denies being asked whether he discouraged Williams from ending the bounty program, but Vitt was made aware of the allegation.

"In my testimony, I was never asked that question," he said. "Whether or not I wanted to keep a bounty program going, I was never asked that question. I was told that accusation was made, and I volunteered at the time in front of commissioner Tagliabue to take a lie detector test that afternoon to deny that allegation. So if anybody is keeping a scorecard here, let's take a look at this.

"I said back in March in my first interview with press and the media, that at no point in time did any of our players cross the white line with the intent of injuring, maiming or ending the career of another player, that never took place."

Vitt was suspended for the first six games for knowingly allowing and coordinating the program. He was named interim head coach because Payton was suspended for the entire 2012 season. Williams, who left in January to join the St. Louis Rams and serve as defensive coordinator, was suspended indefinitely in March.

"I've testified before a federal judge with my hand on the bible," Vitt said. "Now what's going to happen now is all participants, all these accusations are going to go to a federal court, and they're going to go to a judge. And from top to bottom, she's going to hear testimony. And the penalty for perjury with her is going to be jail time. So let's stop.

"That's the scorecard right now. Our players have already been cleared by three bodies of work -- Judge Berigan, a three-(judge panel) and commissioner Tagliabue.

"Myself, (head coach) Sean (Payton) and (GM) Mickey (Loomis) didn't have that right. Now, until the day I die -- and I think I'll be able to find six pallbearers -- I'm going to defend the intent of our football players. I'm going to defend the integrity of this organization and the high moral standards to which our owner holds us all to. And that's just the truth. That's just the truth."

_________________________________________________________

Yup, he said that Gregg Williams lied to Tagliabue and will eventually have to face a real court where his lies will put him in jail.

For a person so caught up in the word "bounty" and thr meaning behind, you sure did miss this one.

Vitt just denied a bounty program, referencing a quote he stated back in March, but Williams was advising that Vitt wanted to keep the performance pool going after they were told to stop, not the bounty.

To be specific and fair, the article u posted back on page 180 or 181 used the term "pay for pain" although it didnt have quotes around it. So I'm unsure of the term that Williams used.