NFL: Saints Bounty Thread

[phocis850]

I give credit to Vilma for one thing. He sure knows how to extend a boring ass issue.

[AsylumGuido]

(10-26-2012 12:19 PM)ATLBound Wrote:  He always seems to conveniently leave that part out....

Then he proceeds to give the "explanation" of what a cart-off is but of course in the Saints warped eyes and minds.

I asked my wife the other day..

Me: In football what does it mean when a player is carted off the field?

Her: It means that he is injured.

A few minutes later she says "What that supposed to be a trick question because that was an easy one?

My wife doesn't really watch sports until I do so she isn't ignorant about sports but everybody knows what a cart-off is.

This is where the targeting specific players comes from with intent to injure. The 10 grand thing may or may not have happened, but the cart-offs did.

I'm in the "We know there was wrongdoing, but the punishments may have beenntoo excessive" group.

I say "may" because all the evidence may not have come out yet.

They were not awarded for having players carted off the field. That's the whole point. You are hung up on a word, not the intent. They could have called it "Fred" instead of "cartoff" and it would still mean that a player left the field for one or more plays. It had nothing to do with a player being carted off.

Once again, they only got awarded if it was a clean play, in other words, a good play. It had nothing to do with targeting, it had nothing to do with a specific player, it had nothing to do with intent to injure. It had everything to do with doing their job the right way. Players have always been celebrated for knocking opposing players out of the game.

Sean Witherspoon knocked RGIII out of the game and you can't tell me that in the film study he didn't get extra credit for the play of some sort even if it was just congratulations.

[ATLBound]

(10-26-2012 12:59 PM)AsylumGuido Wrote:  They were not awarded for having players carted off the field. That's the whole point. You are hung up on a word, not the intent. They could have called it "Fred" instead of "cartoff" and it would still mean that a player left the field for one or more plays. It had nothing to do with a player being carted off.

Once again, they only got awarded if it was a clean play, in other words, a good play. It had nothing to do with targeting, it had nothing to do with a specific player, it had nothing to do with intent to injure. It had everything to do with doing their job the right way. Players have always been celebrated for knocking opposing players out of the game.

Sean Witherspoon knocked RGIII out of the game and you can't tell me that in the film study he didn't get extra credit for the play of some sort even if it was just congratulations.

He didn't get paid beyond his contract tho.

Thats the difference in a bounty and not a bounty.

Nobody's arguing the nature of the sport.

And once again you're talking it being a good play or not. Nobody is arguing good or bad here. So whether it was a clean hit or not is irrelevant. Please stop bringing that up like it matters.

They didn't call it fred, they called it cartoff. And they can change the description of it after the fact all they want, but a cart off is used for a player leaving the game one play, 2 plays, the game or eternity. It doesn't matter.

The player left because an injury and the player causing the injury received an extra incentive for it. Its not that hard to understand.

You keep bringing up irrelevant points like:

1. Others are celebrated for the same thing
2. It was a clean hit
3. They only left for 1 or 2 plays

Here is what is relevant:
1. Player A provides CLEAN HIT (LOL) to Player B that causes an injury
2. Player B leaves the field for one or 2 plays
3. Player A gets EXTRA pay for causing Player B to leave the game due to injury for 1 or 2 plays.

Simple, no?

[juraitwaluzka]

And here I thought a cart off referred to one of those crazy contests at the grocery store where you get 30 seconds of free looting. Maybe the saints got the term from all the cart offs that were going in down there post Katrina.

[JDaveG]

(10-26-2012 01:30 PM)ATLBound Wrote:  They didn't call it fred, they called it cartoff. And they can change the description of it after the fact all they want, but a cart off is used for a player leaving the game one play, 2 plays, the game or eternity. It doesn't matter.

Accepting that line also requires us to ignore common sense and reason for this simple reason:

They NEVER cart anyone off the field for a minor injury that would take someone out for one play. The cart is brought out when someone is hurt badly and cannot leave the field under their own power. So if the Saints want to use "cart off" to describe what is being paid for, it's quite disingenuous to come back later and say "well, we didn't really mean people getting HURT and all....."

It defies all reason and common sense. They were sending a message. The message was "if you injure another player, you will get paid." Pretending that isn't the message that was intended is convenient, but not particularly persuasive.

[ATLBound]

(10-26-2012 01:51 PM)JDaveG Wrote:  Accepting that line also requires us to ignore common sense and reason for this simple reason:

They NEVER cart anyone off the field for a minor injury that would take someone out for one play. The cart is brought out when someone is hurt badly and cannot leave the field under their own power. So if the Saints want to use "cart off" to describe what is being paid for, it's quite disingenuous to come back later and say "well, we didn't really mean people getting HURT and all....."

It defies all reason and common sense. They were sending a message. The message was "if you injure another player, you will get paid." Pretending that isn't the message that was intended is convenient, but not particularly persuasive.

I agree completely.

I was going along with the one or two play thing to cater to the situation. I just want to get across that a one play injury and a season ending injury doesn't matter.

I will add a little extra to your statement so Guido can be satisfied "If you CLEANLY injure another player, you get paid."

[phocis850]

(10-26-2012 01:42 PM)juraitwaluzka Wrote:  And here I thought a cart off referred to one of those crazy contests at the grocery store where you get 30 seconds of free looting. Maybe the saints got the term from all the cart offs that were going in down there post Katrina.

Anyone else remember Super Market Sweep? I loved that show as a kid.

[AsylumGuido]

(10-26-2012 01:30 PM)ATLBound Wrote:  He didn't get paid beyond his contract tho.

Thats the difference in a bounty and not a bounty.

Nobody's arguing the nature of the sport.

And once again you're talking it being a good play or not. Nobody is arguing good or bad here. So whether it was a clean hit or not is irrelevant. Please stop bringing that up like it matters.

They didn't call it fred, they called it cartoff. And they can change the description of it after the fact all they want, but a cart off is used for a player leaving the game one play, 2 plays, the game or eternity. It doesn't matter.

The player left because an injury and the player causing the injury received an extra incentive for it. Its not that hard to understand.

You keep bringing up irrelevant points like:

1. Others are celebrated for the same thing
2. It was a clean hit
3. They only left for 1 or 2 plays

Here is what is relevant:
1. Player A provides CLEAN HIT (LOL) to Player B that causes an injury
2. Player B leaves the field for one or 2 plays
3. Player A gets EXTRA pay for causing Player B to leave the game due to injury for 1 or 2 plays.

Simple, no?

No, that is not relevant because that is not what they were accused of doing nor is it what they were disciplined for doing. The league accused the Saints of placing bounties on specific players targeted for intentional injury. For example, the league was saying that the the Saints would say that players A, B and C are the targets this week and you have to go out there and injure them to get this payment.

Instead, what the Saints were doing was the exact same thing the league approved of 12 years earlier. They had a player funded pool (for which there is no rule forbidding) that paid for a variety of big plays which included hard legal hits that resulted in a player missing at least one play. The league stated that these pools are legal as long as the hits are legal and the money is not exorbitant and it is player funded.

No, Witherspoon did not get paid beyond his contract, but neither did these players. Exchanging money between themselves falls outside of those bounds. As the league itself pointed out when they approved the practice, it is no different than a QB giving his o-line watches, or in some cases very expensive cars.

[AsylumGuido]

(10-26-2012 01:42 PM)juraitwaluzka Wrote:  And here I thought a cart off referred to one of those crazy contests at the grocery store where you get 30 seconds of free looting. Maybe the saints got the term from all the cart offs that were going in down there post Katrina.

Why is it that you are so enthralled by that disaster?

[AsylumGuido]

(10-26-2012 01:51 PM)JDaveG Wrote:  Accepting that line also requires us to ignore common sense and reason for this simple reason:

They NEVER cart anyone off the field for a minor injury that would take someone out for one play. The cart is brought out when someone is hurt badly and cannot leave the field under their own power. So if the Saints want to use "cart off" to describe what is being paid for, it's quite disingenuous to come back later and say "well, we didn't really mean people getting HURT and all....."

It defies all reason and common sense. They were sending a message. The message was "if you injure another player, you will get paid." Pretending that isn't the message that was intended is convenient, but not particularly persuasive.

But the Saints players did reward each other for a play that forced a player to leave a game for one play, be it having the wind knocked out of them or having their bell rung as long as the play did not result in a flag or was deemed an illegal hit by the league AND the Saints won the game ... and they called it a cartoff. No pool rewards were given for anything if the Saints lost.

And, no, it was never "if you injure another player, you will get paid." It was in addition to forced fumbles, sacks, etc., "if you deliver a good clean legal hit that results in the player missing a play or more you can receive a reward out of our player funded pool." This has been repeated by the Saints players and coaches over and over again. In fact, according to transcripts of his meeting with Goodell, Vilma said that if a player suffered a serious injury such as a blown out knee no reward would be given regardless of the legality of the hit.