NFL: Saints Bounty Thread

[AsylumGuido]

(09-18-2012 11:41 AM)JDaveG Wrote:  Here's your problem -- you ain't the one what gets to weigh the evidence.

So your opinion on the weight of the evidence counts no more than mine, or Geraldo Rivera's, or Nancy Grace's, or Nipsy Russell's, etc.

This is true. But, apparently Judge Berrigan feels the testimony she heard in her court is weighted toward Vilma, as she stated.

[AsylumGuido]

(09-18-2012 03:54 PM)ATLBound Wrote:  Who were the 9 people who testified?

I'm not sure, but it has to be part of public record. Dave, do you know how to go about finding that out?

[AsylumGuido]

(09-19-2012 07:34 AM)JDaveG Wrote:  Hey, Guido -- we need another Mike Florio article. I have noted that Mike Florio makes up the totality of your multiple sources claiming the Saints are all sweetness and light and the angels in heaven all dance when they fart and all of that.

What about Stephanie Stradley? She is an attorney out of Houston that writes about sports law.

Gregg Williams “Bountygate” Declaration Raises More Questions Than It Answers

The first part of the article was written before the Cerullo declaration was shared. The second part compares the contradicting declarations. Based upon the dramatic differences in the accounts, one of the two has to be false. It may be too long to post here in its entirety, but here she points out key problems with the declarations:

[UPDATE 9/18 3:30 pm: Comparing and contrasting the Cerullo and Williams' statements. The Cerullo document provides a much different account on key points than Williams'. Timing wise, it is signed after the coaches were disciplined, so it is likely that the coaches did not see the declaration nor could defend against what it said. It was also signed right after the Jonathan Vilma defamation suit. Hmm.

The Williams statement, done after the Cerullo statement, does NOT mention allegations mentioned by Cerullo: 1. The "two five stacks." (Would that commonly be thought of as $10,000? No idea); 2. That the money was collected by Cerullo and kept by Williams; 3. That the offer with stacks of money was made before the Cardinals game for Warner; 4. The origins of the pay for performance pool and who was involved with it; 5.The timing for payments into the program.

As I noted before I read the declaration is that the problem with statements is that you can't cross-examine them. To discuss obvious bias or indiscrepancies. Or just how solid the memory of the person is on a subject. You know, the "Are you sure about that" question. You can see parts of the declaration where Cerullo isn't exactly sure of his memory, such as "to the best of my recollection and in substance" as it related to Anthony Hargroves' alleged statements.

Seems to me that you would need to be very cautious making public, reputation statements and significant punishments based on inconsistent information from sources who have their own reputational issues.]

[AsylumGuido]

(09-19-2012 07:54 AM)RockHoward Wrote:  I heard Mike Florio on the latest Double Coverage podcast and his story has changed slightly. now it is (paraphrasing) "Something bad happened in some locker room meetings but whatever that is, it has been blown out of proportion."

And he is correct. But, it was never an institutionalized bounty program that targeted specific players for intentional injure over the course of three seasons as was initially claimed by Goodell. It was nothing anywhere close to that. I don't know how many times I have pointed that fact out over the past five months. But, THAT is why the punishments were so severe. And THAT is why Payton was suspended for supposedly lying because of denying any knowledge of any bounty program in place.

[JDaveG]

(09-19-2012 10:36 AM)AsylumGuido Wrote:  What about Stephanie Stradley? She is an attorney out of Houston that writes about sports law.

Gregg Williams “Bountygate” Declaration Raises More Questions Than It Answers

The first part of the article was written before the Cerullo declaration was shared. The second part compares the contradicting declarations. Based upon the dramatic differences in the accounts, one of the two has to be false. It may be too long to post here in its entirety, but here she points out key problems with the declarations:

[UPDATE 9/18 3:30 pm: Comparing and contrasting the Cerullo and Williams' statements. The Cerullo document provides a much different account on key points than Williams'. Timing wise, it is signed after the coaches were disciplined, so it is likely that the coaches did not see the declaration nor could defend against what it said. It was also signed right after the Jonathan Vilma defamation suit. Hmm.

The Williams statement, done after the Cerullo statement, does NOT mention allegations mentioned by Cerullo: 1. The "two five stacks." (Would that commonly be thought of as $10,000? No idea); 2. That the money was collected by Cerullo and kept by Williams; 3. That the offer with stacks of money was made before the Cardinals game for Warner; 4. The origins of the pay for performance pool and who was involved with it; 5.The timing for payments into the program.

As I noted before I read the declaration is that the problem with statements is that you can't cross-examine them. To discuss obvious bias or indiscrepancies. Or just how solid the memory of the person is on a subject. You know, the "Are you sure about that" question. You can see parts of the declaration where Cerullo isn't exactly sure of his memory, such as "to the best of my recollection and in substance" as it related to Anthony Hargroves' alleged statements.

Seems to me that you would need to be very cautious making public, reputation statements and significant punishments based on inconsistent information from sources who have their own reputational issues.]

That's two. So you and Goodell are even, as I see it.

Re: how to find out who testified, it's not necessarily public record until an Order is released. There could be a transcript available, or there could be affidavits on file, but probably not. We'll have to wait for the judge to rule.

[JDaveG]

(09-19-2012 10:24 AM)AsylumGuido Wrote:  This is true. But, apparently Judge Berrigan feels the testimony she heard in her court is weighted toward Vilma, as she stated.

"Apparently" is a weasel word. If you were a journalist, you'd be in a bit of trouble for using it.

[AsylumGuido]

(09-19-2012 10:53 AM)JDaveG Wrote:  "Apparently" is a weasel word. If you were a journalist, you'd be in a bit of trouble for using it.

Fortunately, I am no longer a journalist. That was many years ago in a past life.

[AsylumGuido]

(09-19-2012 10:51 AM)JDaveG Wrote:  That's two. So you and Goodell are even, as I see it.

Re: how to find out who testified, it's not necessarily public record until an Order is released. There could be a transcript available, or there could be affidavits on file, but probably not. We'll have to wait for the judge to rule.

LOL!! I don't know how to take being called even with Goodell.

As for who testified, we could probably figure it out since it is probably those few defensive players and coaches who were on the team in 2009 and were still in New Orleans at the time of the hearing.

[JDaveG]

(09-19-2012 11:11 AM)AsylumGuido Wrote:  LOL!! I don't know how to take being called even with Goodell.

As for who testified, we could probably figure it out since it is probably those few defensive players and coaches who were on the team in 2009 and were still in New Orleans at the time of the hearing.

Why wouldn't players who left New Orleans by the time of the hearing not come and testify on Vilma's behalf?

I'm not saying you're wrong, in fact I think you're right -- let the reader understand.

[AsylumGuido]

(09-19-2012 11:14 AM)JDaveG Wrote:  Why wouldn't players who left New Orleans by the time of the hearing not come and testify on Vilma's behalf?

I'm not saying you're wrong, in fact I think you're right -- let the reader understand.

I thought about that too, but I just figured they would have probably felt comfortable with all of those still in town testifying since it was just a hearing on the restraining order. I'm sure every single person on that defensive team would be subpenaed along with Williams and Cerullo (who were served this week) when the time comes.