NFL: Listen to Tim Tebow’s comeback against the Bears

[cooperbh]

(12-18-2011 03:32 PM)JDaveG Wrote:  Then you should read more. The Holy Martyrs in Russia were absolutely killed precisely because of their Christian faith and precisely because they were not atheists. One of those Holy Martyrs is my eldest daughter's Patron Saint, Saint Elizabeth the New Martyr. Here is a snippet of her story dealing with her martyrdom:


http://orthodoxwiki.org/Elizabeth_the_New_Martyr

You want to pretend that didn't happen, and you make this false distinction (that in reality doesn't even exist) that this supposedly was not "in the name of" atheism. And yet atheism is a basic tenet of Communism, at least as it was practiced in the Soviet Union. The blood of the Holy Martyrs in Russia and other Communist states (which, for the record, account for over half of all the martyrs in Christian history) screams against your false distinction.

I would also point out that the Crusades and the Inquisition were hardly sanctioned by all of Christianity, so it is no defense that "all atheists didn't agree with the Bolsheviks." At the end of the day, Eastern Christians were victims of the Crusades, not perpetrators. So taking a portion of Christian believers and extrapolating that to all Christian believers as being "in the name of" Christianity is disingenuous. Particularly when the same arrow can be pointed at the Soviets and atheism.

This is just special pleading on your part (also known as a double standard). You should read some history before you speak further.

Atheism is not a tenet of Socialism or Communism. Members of the Russian Orthodox Church were not persecuted because of their religious beliefs, but because of their long standing connection to the Tsars and their support of anti-Communist forces during the Russian Civiil War. In other words, the elimination of Christianity by the Bolsheviks was a means, not an end.

Atheism is not an institution with aspirations and mechanisms for converting non-believers and growing its ranks. Christianity is. Again, the two can't be compared.

[cooperbh]

Speaking of Jesus...

http://www.hulu.com/watch/311565/saturda...s-p1-sr-i1

[JDaveG]

(12-19-2011 02:17 PM)cooperbh Wrote:  Atheism is not a tenet of Socialism or Communism. Members of the Russian Orthodox Church were not persecuted because of their religious beliefs, but because of their long standing connection to the Tsars and their support of anti-Communist forces during the Russian Civiil War. In other words, the elimination of Christianity by the Bolsheviks was a means, not an end.

That's just utterly ridiculous. You need to read history instead of telling the story you want to be true. It's not as if this isn't well documented. Again, over half the martyrs in Christian history came under Communism. Are you telling me they all had ties to the Tsars? Give me a break!

If you won't research it yourself, read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution..._Countries

Here's a nice sampling for you:

Quote:After the Revolution of 1917, the Bolsheviks undertook a massive program to remove the influence of the Russian Orthodox Church from the government and Russian society, and to make the state atheist. Tens of thousands of churches were destroyed or converted to other uses, and many members of clergy were imprisoned for anti-government activities. An extensive education and propaganda campaign was undertaken to convince people, especially the children and youth, to abandon religious beliefs. This persecution resulted in the martyrdom of millions of Orthodox followers in the 20th century by the Soviet Union, whether intentional or not.

....and....

Quote:The main target of the anti-religious campaign in the 1920s and 1930s was the Russian Orthodox Church, which had the largest number of faithful. A very large segment of its clergy, and many of its believers, were shot or sent to labor camps. Theological schools were closed, and church publications were prohibited. In the period between 1927 and 1940, the number of Orthodox Churches in the Russian Republic fell from 29,584 to less than 500. Between 1917 and 1940, 130,000 Orthodox priests were arrested. The widespread persecution and internecine disputes within the church hierarchy lead to the seat of Patriarch of Moscow being vacant from 1925–1943.

Quote:Atheism is not an institution with aspirations and mechanisms for converting non-believers and growing its ranks. Christianity is. Again, the two can't be compared.

Christianity is not a monolithic organization either, though you wish to pretend it to be so. The Communists were atheists who were organized with aspirations for taking over the world and converting non-Communists by force of arms. You keep making distinctions, but there are no real differences.

[monoxide]

I wasn't meaning to start a "opium of the masses" argument when I cited Mao, Hitler, Pott, and Stalin as being confirmed atheists. What I was trying to say was that when you attempt to credit the crusades and abortion clinic bombings as typical mainstream Christianity, your argument is on life support to put it kindly. Why not instead point out Mother Theresa or Martin Luther King Jr? It's an extremely weak and unfair argument, but unfortunately pretty popular among the new atheist movement. Saying that religion does bad things does not contribute to the argument of the existence of God, it merely insults the intelligence of both sides.

[JDaveG]

(12-19-2011 03:12 PM)monoxide Wrote:  I wasn't meaning to start a "opium of the masses" argument when I cited Mao, Hitler, Pott, and Stalin as being confirmed atheists. What I was trying to say was that when you attempt to credit the crusades and abortion clinic bombings as typical mainstream Christianity, your argument is on life support to put it kindly. Why not instead point out Mother Theresa or Martin Luther King Jr? It's an extremely weak and unfair argument, but unfortunately pretty popular among the new atheist movement. Saying that religion does bad things does not contribute to the argument of the existence of God, it merely insults the intelligence of both sides.

It's even worse than that. The way it typically unfolds, if something is good, it is in spite of "religion," but if it is bad, it is because of "religion." I've heard it argued that the Soviet Communists were really more like a religion than truly atheist. Seriously. It's the worst, most blatant kind of special pleading. EVERYONE knows certain Christians have done bad things throughout history. No one seriously denies that. And everyone knows the violent history of some segments of Islam, etc. The problem is the failure to accept that bad people exist in any large group, and atheists aren't immune from that. It's impossible to keep up the "religion is bad based on all the bad things some religious people have done" line if that same argument can be pointed at your preferred group. So the response is to contort the argument away from bad things atheists have done (which are every bit as bad as anything any religious group ever did) in an attempt to change the subject.

[Radical]

Please continue the off-topic discussion HERE.

I will open this thread back up after the discussion continues over there. I will also be deleting the off-topic posts in this thread when I do open this thread back up.