NFL: Before final game, Gregg Williams urged Saints to injure 49ers

[AsylumGuido]

(04-10-2012 12:05 PM)RFlagg Wrote:  Except the one main problem that Sean Payton was coming up with the offensive game plans even when he was "out". Why is that no one ever seems to remember this little tidbit from last season?

No one remembers this tidbit because it isn't true. Payton, Carmichael AND Brees came up with the game plans every week since 2006 together. It has always been a collaborative effort. In fact, that 62 point performance last year against the Colts was Carmichael and Brees.

New Orleans Saints get record-setting 62-7 win over Colts

Payton said he turned the keys over to Carmichael last Monday or Tuesday when the game plan was being crafted. The spectacular results were a point of pride in the locker room after the blowout. Brees said Carmichael's masterpiece underscored that the franchise's philosophy is not confined to the field.

"The belief that no matter what happens it is an opportunity for the next guy to step up and show what he's got," Brees said. "Pete did a phenomenal job. It was a great execution of our game plan. I don't know what to say about 62 points; I don't know that you ever expect to score that many."

[RFlagg]

(04-10-2012 12:56 PM)AsylumGuido Wrote:  No one remembers this tidbit because it isn't true. Payton, Carmichael AND Brees came up with the game plans every week since 2006 together. It has always been a collaborative effort. In fact, that 62 point performance last year against the Colts was Carmichael and Brees.

New Orleans Saints get record-setting 62-7 win over Colts

Payton said he turned the keys over to Carmichael last Monday or Tuesday when the game plan was being crafted. The spectacular results were a point of pride in the locker room after the blowout. Brees said Carmichael's masterpiece underscored that the franchise's philosophy is not confined to the field.

"The belief that no matter what happens it is an opportunity for the next guy to step up and show what he's got," Brees said. "Pete did a phenomenal job. It was a great execution of our game plan. I don't know what to say about 62 points; I don't know that you ever expect to score that many."

I'm sorry, but when you're referencing your 62 point performance against the 2011 Colts, you're reaching. Only 4 teams in the entire league gave up more points than the Colts last season.

[Beef]

(04-10-2012 11:43 AM)AsylumGuido Wrote:  You greatly overestimate my pain. I learned a long time ago to roll with the punches and as a recent cancer survivor I have learned to always be positive and optimistic in the way I look at things.

Congratulations on beating that bitch cancer. I'm genuinely happy for you.

As for my "greatly overestimating" your pain, do you understand all the irony you've been displaying here and the fact that your statement about overestimating your pain is just another part of it?

Think for a second. Since this thing started, how many times have you made a statement or held a contention or made a prediction here that has ultimately ended up wrong or the opposite has happened?

It's at least 90%, possibly closer to 99%.

You made a crazy amount of statements that qualify as "denial" and everyone here, except maybe you, realizes it.

You lashed out in anger at Goodell. He's the enemy. He's the bad guy. He's done this to your team. And then you wished bad things on him.

And most recently, you're negotiating who's more or less guilty, who's the most at fault, who should get reprieve and who should be condemned. And you're showing overwhelmingly obnoxious bias in the process.

Considering you've flowed through the stages of grief/pain like a poster-child for the Kübler-Ross model, you're obviously refusing to acknowlege how disappointing this whole thing really is to you. Your spirit has been crushed my friend and you're just not at acceptance yet. But it's coming. It's coming.

And I'm smiling while watching it happen.

[AsylumGuido]

(04-10-2012 01:50 PM)Beef Wrote:  Congratulations on beating that bitch cancer. I'm genuinely happy for you.

As for my "greatly overestimating" your pain, do you understand all the irony you've been displaying here and the fact that your statement about overestimating your pain is just another part of it?

Think for a second. Since this thing started, how many times have you made a statement or held a contention or made a prediction here that has ultimately ended up wrong or the opposite has happened?

It's at least 90%, possibly closer to 99%.

You made a crazy amount of statements that qualify as "denial" and everyone here, except maybe you, realizes it.

You lashed out in anger at Goodell. He's the enemy. He's the bad guy. He's done this to your team. And then you wished bad things on him.

And most recently, you're negotiating who's more or less guilty, who's the most at fault, who should get reprieve and who should be condemned. And you're showing overwhelmingly obnoxious bias in the process.

Considering you've flowed through the stages of grief/pain like a poster-child for the Kübler-Ross model, you're obviously refusing to acknowlege how disappointing this whole thing really is to you. Your spirit has been crushed my friend and you're just not at acceptance yet. But it's coming. It's coming.

And I'm smiling while watching it happen.

Thank you ...


... and according to your theory I should be feeling what? Yes, I am still pissed that Goodell chose now to finally get his head out of his ass and make an overblown example of the Saints. I am also pissed that he sat back letting the media totally embellish to the extremes what may have gone on to help justify his stance. You can say denial because to this day I have yet heard one solid bit of evidence that there were any payments made to players for any predefined injuries or that any player actively took part in that practice.

I'm not saying that it couldn't have or didn't happen to a degree, but one would think that something as systematic as the media is making it out to be would have some piece of solid evidence, right?

I have heard about an email addressed to Payton that mentioned "putting $5000 on Rogers (sic) on with Greg (sic)" which doesn't sound good, but does solidify that any players acted upon it.

I have heard the Williams tape which makes absolutely no mention of any payment for injury, which is what all of this is supposed to be about.

I have heard that someone heard Vilma say something about him having $10,000 if someone take Favre out of the playoff game. Even if this could be proven it doesn't mean that anything came of it.

If this all was as wide-spread and methodical as the media made it out to be wouldn't you think that there would have been a shred of real solid evidence that Goodell could have given the NFLPA to have convinced them that players had been involved in a bounty scheme?

The fact is that the league investigated the Saints in 2009 and 2010 and could make no case until some supposed whistleblower appeared toward the end of the 2011 season.

The Saints have been punished and have weathered it far better than most would have imagined. Beside this issue they have done well in the off-season so far with the hiring of Spagnuolo and their free agent acquisitions.

How do you want me to feel beyond how I feel now? I am looking forward to the season and expect a good year from the Saints.

[AsylumGuido]

(04-10-2012 01:22 PM)RFlagg Wrote:  I'm sorry, but when you're referencing your 62 point performance against the 2011 Colts, you're reaching. Only 4 teams in the entire league gave up more points than the Colts last season.

And how many other teams managed to put up that many points against the Colts last year? It was still accomplished by Carmichael and Brees. As I pointed out, those two have been a large part of game planning since 2006. If anyone can handle it near as good without Payton's input it is those two.

I will give it to you, though, that there isn't a better game manager than Payton. That's where his presence will be missed the most. Hopefully they'll be motivated enough (running scores up) that that will not be a big issue.

[Beef]

You ever heard the term, "where there's smoke, there's fire"? And how many times in the history of the sports world has the "MASS" media billowed smoke and it ends up being a mistake or a lie? I'd say the percentage is less than 1% when it's the mass media and not just one or two attention whores.

Does the media sensationalize shit for ratings? Do liberal politicians pander to the lowest of society to buy votes? Does a bear shit in the woods?

We all know the obvious answer.

But what you're very much refusing to acknowledge is the logical truths. That Goodell, the NFLPA, the owners, the teams, and even many of the players know they are in the entertainment business and that business is better off keeping a positive image, minimizing the negatives, AND because of all the older players who are now looking for a pay day from a class-action lawsuit, Goodell is forced to be as discrete as possible.

The news needs fuel to provoke viewership and ratings and when they don't get enough, they sensationalize every tidbit they do get and they often fill in the blanks with half-truths or embellished predictions until the real shit is leaked or the OK to release it is given.

In the end, however, you, me, nor anyone else is "entitled" to full disclosure of all the facts and evidence. And if you understand even a smidgen of how slander and libel law works, then you would realize that Goodell isn't going to defamate anyone or lay down punishment and subject himself and the league to that degree of accountability without having legitimate and copious reasons to do so.

With that in mind, you need to just accept the fact that there's obviously overwhelming and damning evidence substantiating all the punishment he's delivered. And to refuse to accept it is simply "denial" at it's blind core.

And as for "weathering the punishment well", you're just being a biased homer simply saying what hopeful biased homers would say. Truth is, you nor any of us nor anyone else knows what effects any of this will have on the Saints.

One thing you might take into consideration to reflect on your perspective though, is if the situation was flipped and all this was happening to the Falcons, you know damn well you'd be telling us that losing our HC and having our players hounded by the media with never-ending pre-game questions about "how is (insert whatever about bountygate/Payton/Loomis/etc) effecting you" would take it's toll on the team and you'd be surprised if we went 8-8. Just think about that.

[AsylumGuido]

(04-10-2012 03:01 PM)Beef Wrote:  One thing you might take into consideration to reflect on your perspective though, is if the situation was flipped and all this was happening to the Falcons, you know damn well you'd be telling us that losing our HC and having our players hounded by the media with never-ending pre-game questions about "how is (insert whatever about bountygate/Payton/Loomis/etc) effecting you" would take it's toll on the team and you'd be surprised if we went 8-8. Just think about that.

Well, if your offense was entering it's 7th year with a top QB and it's offensive coordinator in place and improvements on the defensive side of the ball I would honestly say that I would be surprised if y'all only managed 8-8.

I understand why you would feel that way because of what y'all went through with the Vick fiasco. That torn your team up. But, it wasn't them against the world, it was them against them. They lost their best offensive player AND their coach and they were not that good to begin with.

The Saints are facing this in a much better light. I really think you are overestimating the media impact on the players. This WILL be old news by the time the season begins and while it may be mentioned it will have been rehashed so many times between now and then it will be no more than a side note. It may have been different had it all came about closer to the start of the season, but five months is an eternity in the public consciousness.

I fully expect the Saints to come together and play with a common purpose. I expect them to hit the field wanting to prove that they don't need to cheat to win. I can see a bad team crumbling, but the Saints are still one of the best teams in the league and have more reason than ever to prove it.

[Beef]

And as completely expected, a homeristic retort confirming precisely my point.

"This WILL be old news...."

Do you hear yourself? I mean REALLY hear yourself?

In one instant you crack on the media for sensationalizing, going overboard, and blowing everything out of proportion, and an instant later you say they won't be doing it once the season starts and they actually get more access to the players and teams and people involved.

It doesn't work like that dude. Your bias is clearly warping your sense of logic.

[AsylumGuido]

(04-10-2012 03:35 PM)Beef Wrote:  And as completely expected, a homeristic retort confirming precisely my point.

"This WILL be old news...."

Do you hear yourself? I mean REALLY hear yourself?

In one instant you crack on the media for sensationalizing, going overboard, and blowing everything out of proportion, and an instant later you say they won't be doing it once the season starts and they actually get more access to the players and teams and people involved.

It doesn't work like that dude. Your bias is clearly warping your sense of logic.

I know how the media works. I was media for years. I know exactly how the media works. Yes, it will come back up at the beginning of the season, but every angle will have been perused to the point that it will be no more than background.

Look at the whole deal with Jeremy Lin. That became a huge story and the media sensationalized it. But, given time, every twist on the story had been made. The public became bored by it and it went away.

Of course it won't go away completely, but it won't be a story any longer.

By the way, I don't see homerism as insulting. It is a factual statement. It is hard to be a fan for almost half a century without being a homer.

[Beef]

You're really trying to compare a cinderella story to a scandal of epic proportions in the most popular sport in the country??? And you expect us to believe "you know how the media works" after doing that?

Bountygate and all the shitstorm related to it is exceedingly more significant and unprecedented than any scandal this league has ever gone through. Look how long Katrina was talked about. Look how long Mike Vick was talked about.

It's absurd, like REALLY absurd, to expect this thing to go away or be minimized out of relevance in the time frame you contend.