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**papachaz** · 09-23-2010, 01:19 PM

(09-22-2010 02:16 PM)Statick Wrote: A starter is still considered "depth", it doesn't necessarily mean being at the bottom. Besides, the way some of you vilify the guy, he may as well be the waterboy.

i don't know about the waterboy comment. After so many dropped cups of water, wouldn't they players just get up and get their own?

LMAO J/K i'm excited to see Jenks coming back, from what I heard about mini camp and OTA's he was looking better catching. If the ones he's dropped in the past weren't critical 3rd downs and a couple of TD's, no one would focus so much on them. just sayin

**Radical** · 09-23-2010, 01:33 PM

If the Jenkins of 08 returns we will have something to look forward to, but the 09 Jenkins was a pain to watch. I still believe Harry Douglas is the better receiver based on what I've seen.

I prefer blocking ability in my WRs like I prefer tackling ability in my CBs. Show me a CB known for his tackling, and I'll show you a bad CB. Show me a WR best known for his blocking, and I'll show you a bad WR. (No one better say Antoine Winfield or Hines Ward)

Beef · 09-23-2010, 02:49 PM

You guys still just don't get it.

Jenkins is a wide receiver, HD is a slot receiver. They're 2 completely different positions. And we NEED HD in the slot to help open up the field, occupy another defender or 2 to reduce double-teams, draw the second layer off the line, hinder blitzes, & create mismatches. You all kill me with all this nonsense about puting HD out wide. And Jenkins is an above average #3 & and exceptional #4 option. He pisses us off with drops, but he still has to be guarded because he CAN make big plays deep. He's fast as hell, tall as hell, has long arms, & can take a CB & FS out of a play every time he goes deep. On top of that, he's a damn good blocking receiver.

This offense needs HD in the slot & a big WR who can block & is a deep threat, period. We are better with Jenkins in there than without. If you don't get that, then you don't understand football very well & are just some whiny complainer.

Knight of God · 09-23-2010, 04:02 PM

(09-23-2010 02:49 PM)Beef Wrote: You guys still just don't get it.

Jenkins is a wide receiver, HD is a slot receiver. They're 2 completely different positions. And we NEED HD in the slot to help open up the field, occupy another defender or 2 to reduce double-teams, draw the second layer off the line, hinder blitzes, & create mismatches. You all kill me with all this nonsense about puting HD out wide. And Jenkins is an above average #3 & and exceptional #4 option. He pisses us off with drops, but he still has to be guarded because he CAN make big plays deep. He's fast as hell, tall as hell, has long arms, & can take a CB & FS out of a play every time he goes deep. On top of that, he's a damn good blocking receiver.

This offense needs HD in the slot & a big WR who can block & is a deep threat, period. We are better with Jenkins in there than without. If you don't get that, then you don't understand football very well & are just some whiny complainer.

Jenkins isn't that good man.

BadMoonRising · 09-23-2010, 04:07 PM

(09-23-2010 02:49 PM)Beef Wrote: You guys still just don't get it.

Jenkins is a wide receiver, HD is a slot receiver. They're 2 completely different positions. And we NEED HD in the slot to help open up the field, occupy another defender or 2 to reduce double-teams, draw the second layer off the line, hinder blitzes, & create mismatches. You all kill me with all this nonsense about puting HD out wide. And Jenkins is an above average #3 & and exceptional #4 option. He pisses us off with drops, but he still has to be guarded because he CAN make big plays deep. He's fast as hell, tall as hell, has long arms, & can take a CB & FS out of a play every time he goes deep. On top of that, he's a damn good blocking receiver.

This offense needs HD in the slot & a big WR who can block & is a deep threat, period. We are better with Jenkins in there than without. If you don't get that, then you don't understand football very well & are just some whiny complainer.

You do know that Jerry Rice played Split end and slot?

If we are in a standard formation with 2rbs, 1 TE, 2 Rec.

I don't think you leave HD on the sideline.
Mathis, Rison are two Falcons who where maybe 6ft, and started at ends.

Jenkins doesn't play like Irvin, he doesn't use that big body to take advantage of the defense like a basketball player.

If he did we wouldn't have a discussion. He has to be open and there has to be seperation. Might as well use HD.

If you have to have a tall receiver than Finn actually does use his body.

I hope Jenkins has a stellar game, I do. I just hope we aren't holding HD progress back like we did others for JA98 at DE.

**Radical** · 09-23-2010, 04:18 PM

(09-23-2010 02:49 PM)Beef Wrote: You guys still just don't get it.

Jenkins is a wide receiver, HD is a slot receiver. They're 2 completely different positions. And we NEED HD in the slot to help open up the field, occupy another defender or 2 to reduce double-teams, draw the second layer off the line, hinder blitzes, & create mismatches. You all kill me with all this nonsense about puting HD out wide. And Jenkins is an above average #3 & and exceptional #4 option. He pisses us off with drops, but he still has to be guarded because he CAN make big plays deep. He's fast as hell, tall as hell, has long arms, & can take a CB & FS out of a play every time he goes deep. On top of that, he's a damn good blocking receiver.

This offense needs HD in the slot & a big WR who can block & is a deep threat, period. We are better with Jenkins in there than without. If you don't get that, then you don't understand football very well & are just some whiny complainer.

We saw in both the Steelers game and the Arizona game that Douglas can play wide, slide inside, and drop to the slot on the field next to Roddy without running 3 WR sets. In the 3+ WR sets he slid down into the slot, just like what Wes Welker does in New England.

Jenkins isn't a deep threat, and has never shown to be a consistent deep threat. When's the last time you saw Jenkins out run his man down field, attack the ball, and bring it in? I'm thinking... Oakland in 08 against DeAngelo Hall? Yeah, once every 2 years isn't going to cut it if you are going to be called a deep threat.

You lit into me on the OMB when I said Douglas would be starting this season if Jenkins couldn't make it back, over Brian Finneran. Maybe you should realize that maybe you might be a little off on how you've characterized Douglas.

***Peyton*** · 09-23-2010, 04:34 PM

(09-23-2010 04:18 PM)Radical Wrote: We saw in both the Steelers game and the Arizona game that Douglas can play wide, slide inside, and drop to the slot on the field next to Roddy without running 3 WR sets. In the 3+ WR sets he slid down into the slot, just like what Wes Welker does in New England.

Jenkins isn't a deep threat, and has never shown to be a consistent deep threat. When's the last time you saw Jenkins out run his man down field, attack the ball, and bring it in? I'm thinking... Oakland in 08 against DeAngelo Hall? Yeah, once every 2 years isn't going to cut it if you are going to be called a deep threat.

You lit into me on the OMB when I said Douglas would be starting this season if Jenkins couldn't make it back, over Brian Finneran. Maybe you should realize that maybe you might be a little off on how you've characterized Douglas.

You want to know the funniest thing? And I have no idea why this is the case, but neither Harry Douglas or Brian Finneran was credited with starting last weeks game. Weems was credited with the start. I'd have to go back and look at the first play to try and get an idea why.

But....wierd.

Ironically, Fin and Douglas both had pretty decent games but Weems got nothing.

Beef · 09-23-2010, 05:08 PM

(09-23-2010 04:18 PM)Radical Wrote: We saw in both the Steelers game and the Arizona game that Douglas can play wide, slide inside, and drop to the slot on the field next to Roddy without running 3 WR sets. In the 3+ WR sets he slid down into the slot, just like what Wes Welker does in New England.

Jenkins isn't a deep threat, and has never shown to be a consistent deep threat. When's the last time you saw Jenkins out run his man down field, attack the ball, and bring it in? I'm thinking... Oakland in 08 against DeAngelo Hall? Yeah, once every 2 years isn't going to cut it if you are going to be called a deep threat.

You lit into me on the OMB when I said Douglas would be starting this season if Jenkins couldn't make it back, over Brian Finneran. Maybe you should realize that maybe you might be a little off on how you've characterized Douglas.

My argument about HD/Finn isn't whether he should start over Finn, it's that he's not a WIDE receiver. HD IS a starting receiver.... a starting SLOT receiver. You don't see Roddy, Jenkins, or Finn lining up in the slot EVER, do you? No. Because Roddy is a Flanker & Jenks & Finn are WR's. HD is being improperly utilized at WR because Jenks is not there.

You know why Brees was able to throw for insane yardage last year? Because he always has no less than 4 receivers, & much of the time 5. Do you understand how hard it is to blitz when there's 3 receivers, a TE, & a catching RB ALWAYS in the second layer or further? Do you understand how hard it is to double-team anyone anywhere on the field when there's that many targets? Do you understand how much easier it is for our running game to push into the secondary when LB's & safeties are off the line & in coverage?

Lining up Roddy, TG, & HD with 2 RB's in the backfield isn't going to keep defenses guessing pass or run. They can easily cover 3 receivers with 4 DB's & shadow a nickle or OLB on a RB & blitz 6. With 6 blitzing, there's no deep threat because Ryan is forced to get rid of the ball quickly.

Now stick HD in the slot & Jenks outside, the BEST they can do is blitz 5 & zone cover the middle, which puts mismatches on at least 2 receivers, and now they have to keep safeties back because Ryan should have time to let the receivers complete their routes, of which one or more can be deep. If we run it, they only have 5 in the box. If they 1v1 man cover everyone & rush 6, we can screen pass to the RB or hit TG or HD on quick dumps in the middle.

HD needs to be in the slot, period. And you're crazy if you don't think Jenkins is fast & can outrun DB's. I've seen him do it plenty. You don't get 50 receptions & 700 yards running 5-10 yard outs every time.

**Radical** · 09-23-2010, 05:39 PM

(09-23-2010 05:08 PM)Beef Wrote: My argument about HD/Finn isn't whether he should start over Finn, it's that he's not a WIDE receiver. HD IS a starting receiver.... a starting SLOT receiver. You don't see Roddy, Jenkins, or Finn lining up in the slot EVER, do you? No. Because Roddy is a Flanker & Jenks & Finn are WR's. HD is being improperly utilized at WR because Jenks is not there.

You know why Brees was able to throw for insane yardage last year? Because he always has no less than 4 receivers, & much of the time 5. Do you understand how hard it is to blitz when there's 3 receivers, a TE, & a catching RB ALWAYS in the second layer or further? Do you understand how hard it is to double-team anyone anywhere on the field when there's that many targets? Do you understand how much easier it is for our running game to push into the secondary when LB's & safeties are off the line & in coverage?

Lining up Roddy, TG, & HD with 2 RB's in the backfield isn't going to keep defenses guessing pass or run. They can easily cover 3 receivers with 4 DB's & shadow a nickle or OLB on a RB & blitz 6. With 6 blitzing, there's no deep threat because Ryan is forced to get rid of the ball quickly.

Now stick HD in the slot & Jenks outside, the BEST they can do is blitz 5 & zone cover the middle, which puts mismatches on at least 2 receivers, and now they have to keep safeties back because Ryan should have time to let the receivers complete their routes, of which one or more can be deep. If we run it, they only have 5 in the box. If they 1v1 man cover everyone & rush 6, we can screen pass to the RB or hit TG or HD on quick dumps in the middle.

HD needs to be in the slot, period. And you're crazy if you don't think Jenkins is fast & can outrun DB's. I've seen him do it plenty. You don't get 50 receptions & 700 yards running 5-10 yard outs every time.

I've seen both Roddy and Finneran in the slot before, yes. Douglas can play as an outside WR, he's done it these past two weeks, and has done it well. I am sure he'll be even better as time goes on and he gets back to speed, as well as comfortable being on the field during games. A learning process.

White, Douglas, Gonzalez, with Turner/Snelling/Ovie in the backfield. If you put four on White, Douglas, and Gonzalez, two people get a one on one match-up. Blitzing 6 would mean we have a potential RB/FB running free if he's running a route, and the OLB would still be in a one on one match-up with the RB. It isn't really what I'd call a horrible situation to be in. Throw in the fact that you can force your opponent to show coverage or deal with a mismatch by putting Douglas in the slot on the same side of the field as Roddy, and the possibilities are hardly limited.

The problem with Jenkins is this. In 09, he was a liability. He wasn't getting open much and he wasn't making the important catches, and that was in one on one coverage. In 08, he was fine, in 09, he wasn't. Jenkins has NEVER in his career been a consistent deep threat. A deep threat is a guy who can run a go route or deep post and out run the CBs/Ss for a big play. Jenkins has never been that guy in his career. Jenkins' longest play of his career was in 08, a 62 yard TD, where most of the play was YAC. After that, a 41 and 37T yarder was the biggest he saw in 08.

The guy should be a deep threat, but plays like a possession receiver. He doesn't play fast, he doesn't really attack the ball in the air, he has average hands at best, isn't really a sharp route runner, and isn't much of a YAC guy either. He does block though, I'll give you that.

Until I at least see the Jenkins of 08, then I am not going to have very many positive things about him to add, because he hasn't shown it yet. Right now, Douglas looks like the better receiving option.

Beef · (This post was last modified: 09-23-2010 06:01 PM by Beef.)

(09-23-2010 05:39 PM)Radical Wrote: I've seen both Roddy and Finneran in the slot before, yes. Douglas can play as an outside WR, he's done it these past two weeks, and has done it well. I am sure he'll be even better as time goes on and he gets back to speed, as well as comfortable being on the field during games. A learning process.

White, Douglas, Gonzalez, with Turner/Snelling/Ovie in the backfield. If you put four on White, Douglas, and Gonzalez, two people get a one on one match-up. Blitzing 6 would mean we have a potential RB/FB running free if he's running a route, and the OLB would still be in a one on one match-up with the RB. It isn't really what I'd call a horrible situation to be in. Throw in the fact that you can force your opponent to show coverage or deal with a mismatch by putting Douglas in the slot on the same side of the field as Roddy, and the possibilities are hardly limited.

The problem with Jenkins is this. In 09, he was a liability. He wasn't getting open much and he wasn't making the important catches, and that was in one on one coverage. In 08, he was fine, in 09, he wasn't. Jenkins has NEVER in his career been a consistent deep threat. A deep threat is a guy who can run a go route or deep post and out run the CBs/Ss for a big play. Jenkins has never been that guy in his career. Jenkins' longest play of his career was in 08, a 62 yard TD, where most of the play was YAC. After that, a 41 and 37T yarder was the biggest he saw in 08.

The guy should be a deep threat, but plays like a possession receiver. He doesn't play fast, he doesn't really attack the ball in the air, he has average hands at best, isn't really a sharp route runner, and isn't much of a YAC guy either. He does block though, I'll give you that.

Until I at least see the Jenkins of 08, then I am not going to have very many positive things about him to add, because he hasn't shown it yet. Right now, Douglas looks like the better receiving option.

Your scenerio is also viable, I agree. But it still doesn't open the field until you put HD in the slot (which you actually mentioned as one of your options & is what I've obviously been saying all along). There is a HUGE difference in having 3 actual "receivers" + TE + a catching RB vs. 2 receivers + TE + 2 RB's. Your set is a play-action/run first formation. One of those RB's is going to be taken out of the play (if it's a pass) because he's specifically designed to be a decoy (although it doesn't have to be run like that, but if it's not, & it's just a QB drop back & obvious pass, it's even easier to defend). Not only are you then short a receiver, but you're short a blocker. And, in your set, an extra LB gets to stack the line & safeties get to cheat up. So you're right that it is an option, but if that's the only option, you're making it real easy to defend.

And I still think one of the main reasons Jenkins didn't have as good a year in 09 as he had in 08 is because HD was missing & they just didn't trust Weems enough to manage that slot receiver position. Which IMO, was a HUGE mistake & why I'm constantly ticked off with some of the things Mularkey does. I hate being an armchair QB, so you rarely hear me criticize Mularkey, but he sure is good at getting the minimum out of our offensive potential. We could do so much more if he would use the pass to open up the run rather than try to force the run & those easily predictable & telegraphed run formations to open up the pass. He's got the talent all around & he's just utilizing it backwards.