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**Radical** · 05-10-2011, 02:14 AM

(05-09-2011 11:35 PM)papachaz Wrote: spend some time reading over on the link drake put in.

the single biggest thing i picked up reading over there was, it don't matter who the coach was, from Bum Phillips, Jimmy Johnson or Arnsbarger, their scheme worked and made them 'the man' when they had the right players..... so this tells us something about what they're (BVG and MS and the scheme) trying to vs trying to do something they still don't have the right personnel for? or could we just say maybe the injuries we've suffered with some of our players has really hindered it that much?

Our defense can be very dominant, our weaknesses have been the following.

1. Lack of consistent pass rush. Be it from the DT position, or LDE position. We've never been able to get a consistent performance from all 3 positions that Abraham doesn't play. Throw in the fact that we've had poor depth along the position, that means that the players rotating in to relieve our starters in our extremely aggressive defensive line scheme, you end up having serious issues. The ideal result this year is that Kroy plays more consistently, Babs gets back to 09 level, and Jerry comes back 100% and steps up. If we grab a FA DE, all the better.

2. Lack of CB depth. Up until Dunta, we had 1 good CB in Grimes and average everywhere else. Brian Williams helped this a bit(even though he's been injured). With Dunta, Grimes, and Williams we had a trio of good to solid starting CBs that we could rely on. When Williams went down before the Packers game, we got to see the defense of old we saw against the Bengals, one with our 4th CB having to step up in Chris Owens. Simply put, we lack solid CB depth.

3. OLB play. Peterson is slow and Nicholas is okay at best in pass coverage. Weatherspoon is a rookie who played on an injury. The run defense is okay, but we've been poor when it comes to pass coverage. This is what has allowed end-arounds, screens, and seam patterns to turn into big gains against us. Simply put, our OLBs need to be fast and adept in coverage. So far, they haven't done that well.

**papachaz** · 05-10-2011, 02:28 PM

(05-10-2011 02:14 AM)Radical Wrote: Our defense can be very dominant, our weaknesses have been the following.

1. Lack of consistent pass rush. Be it from the DT position, or LDE position. We've never been able to get a consistent performance from all 3 positions that Abraham doesn't play. Throw in the fact that we've had poor depth along the position, that means that the players rotating in to relieve our starters in our extremely aggressive defensive line scheme, you end up having serious issues. The ideal result this year is that Kroy plays more consistently, Babs gets back to 09 level, and Jerry comes back 100% and steps up. If we grab a FA DE, all the better.

ok but didn't i hear a LOT about how we got good pressure? lot's of hurries and pressures, just not enough completion, IE: sacks? going back to the comment of 'blowing up the play'....of course that's not just pass plays, i realize that

2. Lack of CB depth. Up until Dunta, we had 1 good CB in Grimes and average everywhere else. Brian Williams helped this a bit(even though he's been injured). With Dunta, Grimes, and Williams we had a trio of good to solid starting CBs that we could rely on. When Williams went down before the Packers game, we got to see the defense of old we saw against the Bengals, one with our 4th CB having to step up in Chris Owens. Simply put, we lack solid CB depth.

no doubt we saw a big decline when BW went out. and we all saw, yeah against Cincy and in the playoff loss, our 4th CB not able to step in and get it done. the same guy who looked stellar in the last three games the previous season. hopefully CO either steps up, or gets replaced....

3. OLB play. Peterson is slow and Nicholas is okay at best in pass coverage. Weatherspoon is a rookie who played on an injury. The run defense is okay, but we've been poor when it comes to pass coverage. This is what has allowed end-arounds, screens, and seam patterns to turn into big gains against us. Simply put, our OLBs need to be fast and adept in coverage. So far, they haven't done that well.
ok so then are we saying that poor LB ability to cover is what's killed us in screens, seams and end around? and if i'm understanding anything any better, wouldn't this be the responsibility of the nickel back, to help in coverage esp in these plays? not meaning to put the blame entirely on the nickleback, and to get back on topic with the DLine, it seems obvious more push upfront from both the 3 technique AND the 5 technique guys...

illmusic · 05-11-2011, 12:54 AM

That's one of the problems of over pursuing pass plays...we create allies for the QB to step into, which is why on some plays it seems like everybody goes behind the qb, he steps up and completes an easy pass. Also, we like to have our DBs playing off the line, which basically means we aren't jamming the receiver at the line. That gives up quick routes on the outside. Then, as others have said, our LBs havent showed up in coverage as well as we need them too. That leaves the short to medium middle part of the field wide open, which let's the QB fire off quickly, which denies a pressure from being a sack. I do think we need a more consistent 3-down LDE, because whoever our personnel package on the outside is, helps clue the other team on what we're expecting. Overall, it's not the scheme, BVG called good games minus the Eagles game(a game that exposed the fuck out of our over pursuit) I believe we are a couple of pieces short from being a top 10 defense in all categories. Probably a nickel back, a Peterson improvement, and a 3-down LDE.

**Radical** · 05-11-2011, 01:11 AM

(05-10-2011 02:28 PM)papachaz Wrote: ok but didn't i hear a LOT about how we got good pressure? lot's of hurries and pressures, just not enough completion, IE: sacks? going back to the comment of 'blowing up the play'....of course that's not just pass plays, i realize that

no doubt we saw a big decline when BW went out. and we all saw, yeah against Cincy and in the playoff loss, our 4th CB not able to step in and get it done. the same guy who looked stellar in the last three games the previous season. hopefully CO either steps up, or gets replaced....

ok so then are we saying that poor LB ability to cover is what's killed us in screens, seams and end around? and if i'm understanding anything any better, wouldn't this be the responsibility of the nickel back, to help in coverage esp in these plays? not meaning to put the blame entirely on the nickleback, and to get back on topic with the DLine, it seems obvious more push upfront from both the 3 technique AND the 5 technique guys...

1. Overall, we got decent pressure, but often our interior rush faltered and we didn't finish often. Too many times we watched our DEs speed around the edges only to see the QB step up like it's nothing. Ideally, our DTs need to be able to either push the pocket backwards or at least penetrate through the line. In our scheme, if the front 4 don't disrupt plays, we end up getting shredded.

2. Pretty much

3. Screens are a mixed bag. If your defensive line doesn't recognize it and react quickly enough, then you end up with up with a bunch of offensive linemen matched up on LBs, which is never good. However, it's also the OLBs job to be able to shed a block and get the receiver on the screen before they manage to get up the field. With end-arounds, it is up to the OLBs to make sure they don't give up containment and either force the RB/WR back inside or at least run them out of bounds. We didn't see that very much, it was usually our safeties saving the day here.

Seam patterns can be run by TEs, and when you start throwing in bunch formations and WRs stacked towards one side of the field, your OLBs have to be able to get the job done in pass coverage. Not to mention we saw too many dump-off passes go some distance, which is also on the job of the OLB in our scheme. We're a very read-and-react oriented defense with the back 7, and you have to the speed to make up for this fact. This is why Weatherspoon is such a perfect fit for us, because he's so agile.

Either way, the better our defensive line does and the more we FINISH on our plays, the better off we'll be. You can never have too much talent along the defensive line with our system.

**papachaz** · 05-11-2011, 11:36 AM

(05-11-2011 12:54 AM)illmusic Wrote: That's one of the problems of over pursuing pass plays...we create allies for the QB to step into, which is why on some plays it seems like everybody goes behind the qb, he steps up and completes an easy pass. Also, we like to have our DBs playing off the line, which basically means we aren't jamming the receiver at the line. That gives up quick routes on the outside. Then, as others have said, our LBs havent showed up in coverage as well as we need them too. That leaves the short to medium middle part of the field wide open, which let's the QB fire off quickly, which denies a pressure from being a sack. I do think we need a more consistent 3-down LDE, because whoever our personnel package on the outside is, helps clue the other team on what we're expecting. Overall, it's not the scheme, BVG called good games minus the Eagles game(a game that exposed the fuck out of our over pursuit) I believe we are a couple of pieces short from being a top 10 defense in all categories. Probably a nickel back, a Peterson improvement, and a 3-down LDE.

good points and very much what i've seen too. I HATE how deep our DB's play off sometimes

for the second bolded part, i agree, going back to what i said about reading over at the site Drake linked us to, the personnel clearly makes the difference.

Penumbra · 05-12-2011, 08:20 PM

(05-09-2011 11:35 PM)papachaz Wrote: spend some time reading over on the link drake put in.

the single biggest thing i picked up reading over there was, it don't matter who the coach was, from Bum Phillips, Jimmy Johnson or Arnsbarger, their scheme worked and made them 'the man' when they had the right players..... so this tells us something about what they're (BVG and MS and the scheme) trying to vs trying to do something they still don't have the right personnel for? or could we just say maybe the injuries we've suffered with some of our players has really hindered it that much?

Apologies for a late response. Some of us are working hard to make sure the welfare state stays intact.

The Falcons have been very fortunate about injuries the last 3 years. 2009 we got dinged pretty hard but other than that, other than the loss of Norwood, we've been lucky. That luck won't last.

Here's the facts man,...VG has this scheme and he's been using it for the last three years regardless the personell. He will use his scheme regardless what players are in the game. I'm not slamming VG,...he does blitz a lot and is a good D-coor.

But we must look at the game in the playoffs last year and say,...wt,...

Penumbra · 05-12-2011, 08:25 PM

(05-11-2011 11:36 AM)papachaz Wrote: good points and very much what i've seen too. I HATE how deep our DB's play off sometimes

for the second bolded part, i agree, going back to what i said about reading over at the site Drake linked us to, the personnel clearly makes the difference.

illmusic knows the game. Don't know who you are but right on.

We employ a safe defense,...SAFE defense.

Our DTs are expected to clog the middle and not much penetration,...playing gaps. Lemme cut to the quick here. In VG's defense we must have studs at every LB position. As of now, I'm not sure we do.

**Radical** · 05-12-2011, 08:25 PM

Our scheme has flexed a bit since 08. We blitzed less than just about any other team in the league in 08, while in 2010 we were middle of the pack. We are playing a bit closer to the line with our LBs and safeties as well.

Penumbra · 05-12-2011, 08:54 PM

(05-12-2011 08:25 PM)Radical Wrote: Our scheme has flexed a bit since 08. We blitzed less than just about any other team in the league in 08, while in 2010 we were middle of the pack. We are playing a bit closer to the line with our LBs and safeties as well.

Right on,...as with Lofton at times. It was, is a worry as to how Rogers ripped the defense. And you are right,...in '08 and '09 it was pretty much a base D every play. I will say last season there was more blitz packages but the thing is, it didn't result in many run stops or sacks.

**papachaz** · 05-12-2011, 08:57 PM

(05-12-2011 08:20 PM)Penumbra Wrote: Apologies for a late response. Some of us are working hard to make sure the welfare state stays intact.

The Falcons have been very fortunate about injuries the last 3 years. 2009 we got dinged pretty hard but other than that, other than the loss of Norwood, we've been lucky. That luck won't last.

Here's the facts man,...VG has this scheme and he's been using it for the last three years regardless the personell. He will use his scheme regardless what players are in the game. I'm not slamming VG,...he does blitz a lot and is a good D-coor.

But we must look at the game in the playoffs last year and say,...wt,...

thanks for continuing the conversation, i realize most people work for a living... LOL my comment about injuries was really more like, Jerry injured in his first year, and last year still not completely recovered until right at the end of the year, Moore missing his first year almost completely, DRob missing TC last year with an injury, therefore not 'up to speed' so to speak, Spoon missed some games, and because of the injury really didn't play up to expectations 100% of the time.

that's where i was going with the injury comment. I agree with your thoughts about the playoff game. it didn't seem to me that we could make adjustments