Football Stuff - teach me something 3 technique - 5 technique

[Swift Is a Die Hard]

(05-08-2011 05:43 PM)papachaz Wrote:  ok, THAT'S the kind of stuff right there...while i know i see this with my eyes every game, i don't know that I was 'seeing' it, understanding it. that makes sense, one of the questions i had lined up to add in this thread was what you just pointed out, what kept a good pash rusher from being good against the run too, so you just cleared that up, good post. those are the kind of subtle little things that make a difference when watching a game, i never quite figured out why kroy was considered weak against the run, i just figured it he could push the OT back to pass rush, why couldn't he push him back against the run...so thanks

yeah man

Playing 3 down DE is not a easy task at all . You have to seek out right away is it a run play and if not stay in your GAP and get to the QB .

You ever wonder why we are a team that allows big screen plays vs like Saints is cause Abe is such a great pass rusher and gets up the field teams take advantage of that .

Just the opposite for us ..We are such a balance team ..The dline plays run first so they sit back and wait for play to develop and that allows them to be in position to make a play on a called screen


4-3 SCHEME is truly about gap control and protecting your teammate




Now take this play for example ..

If ABE is coming off that edge rush like he is relying on either Peters/Babs to penetrate and if its a OFF GUARD run play to make the stop or the WLB to be in position to fill that gap and keep the play 3-5 yards .

[papachaz]

(05-08-2011 06:01 PM)Swift Is a Die Hard Wrote:  yeah man

Playing 3 down DE is not a easy task at all . You have to seek out right away is it a run play and if not stay in your GAP and get to the QB .

You ever wonder why we are a team that allows big screen plays vs like Saints is cause Abe is such a great pass rusher and gets up the field teams take advantage of that .

Just the opposite for us ..We are such a balance team ..The dline plays run first so they sit back and wait for play to develop and that allows them to be in position to make a play on a called screen


4-3 SCHEME is truly about gap control and protecting your teammate




Now take this play for example ..

If ABE is coming off that edge rush like he is relying on either Peters/Babs to penetrate and if its a OFF GUARD run play to make the stop or the WLB to be in position to fill that gap and keep the play 3-5 yards .

ok couple of quick questions about your play diagram. is Babs typically the nose for us in that? i don't know if i've really ever seen Kroy pull over and rush the B gap like that either, doesn't he usually go outside?.... secondly, is the secondary in 'quarters' coverage with the "mike" up the pipe? i've been over at the link drake put in.....LOL

EDIT: ok i was just being cute about the coverages, i see you're talking a run play. so the WLB is who, spoon or nicholas?

[Swift Is a Die Hard]

our dline rotates all the time ..you can see Peters/Babs/Johnson and Anderson at that position any time but Babs would be our guy there traditionally

yes Weatherspoon position will be WLB , Nicholas played when he was out


and to be honest that is when Kroy is at his best imo . He might not have gotten to the QB but his pressures have mostly been more consistent from B Gap ...He gets wide sometimes on his edge rush

[papachaz]

(05-08-2011 06:45 PM)Swift Is a Die Hard Wrote:  our dline rotates all the time ..you can see Peters/Babs/Johnson and Anderson at that position any time but Babs would be our guy there traditionally

yes Weatherspoon position will be WLB , Nicholas played when he was out


and to be honest that is when Kroy is at his best imo . He might not have gotten to the QB but his pressures have mostly been more consistent from B Gap ...He gets wide sometimes on his edge rush

ok that first play shown against MIA, where he cuts in and creams the QB, gotcha, maybe you're right and that is his best play, because the eyes don't lie, he gets pushed out too wide a LOT when he goes around the edge. and then, i was just about to say 'dude needs to learn to wrap up and tackle' and then he laid Brady out and had the forced fumble. i think he needs to work more on that for sure, it proves he CAN, but man he sure seems to miss a lot of tackles to me

[Penumbra]

Awesome stuff guys.

And what ya'll did was expose the weaknesses of the scheme Van Gorder and Mike Smith employ.

Placing the pressure on the LBs and the safeties to defend the run is the safe method.

Damn this place has some good stuff.

[Radical]

(05-08-2011 06:07 PM)papachaz Wrote:  ok couple of quick questions about your play diagram. is Babs typically the nose for us in that? i don't know if i've really ever seen Kroy pull over and rush the B gap like that either, doesn't he usually go outside?.... secondly, is the secondary in 'quarters' coverage with the "mike" up the pipe? i've been over at the link drake put in.....LOL

EDIT: ok i was just being cute about the coverages, i see you're talking a run play. so the WLB is who, spoon or nicholas?

Babs rotates, but is more of a traditional under-tackle(the one on the right). That particular diagram shows a stunt with the defensive tackle bouncing outside and the DE collapsing inside. This is best used by quick linemen. The idea behind the stunt is that on every play, an offensive linemen is supposed to have a particular blocking assignment. Even if they are just playing a zone blocking scheme, where they block an area, if all the sudden one guy runs away and someone else just shows up, it can cause confusion and keep the offensive line off-balance. What should be noted though is that in our scheme, both of our DTs play the role of a traditional 3 technique DT. They may not line up in that particular area, but they both fit the mold you look for in a good 3 technique DT. 6"2, around 290, "smallish", extremely quick, fast first step, flows well with a play, high motor, etc.

That 4-3 play in particular is the traditional Tampa 2 zone play. The Mike LB drops into the deep middle between the safeties instead of covering short. This tries to cover up the traditional problems of the Cover 2 where you attack the deep middle void between the safeties. It takes a very special MLB to be able to react quickly enough to read and play the run or drop deep middle and play the pass well. This is why Brian Urlacher is universally viewed as a great LB, because he plays that role so well.

In that play, the Will LB is on the left. The Will on any given play is the linebacker that plays on the weak side of the formation. In the traditional I-formation, the TE lines up next to the RT while the backs line up directly behind the QB. Although it is a very balanced formation(a bit run oriented though), the fact that the more players are lined up right up center rather than left is what makes the right side the strong side.

Our defense isn't really a Cover 2 zone type defense, even though we employ it. We are more of a Cover 2 Man Under team that employs soft man coverage on the outside. It looks similar, but instead of the LBs and CBs taking up zones, they instead cover particular players underneath while the safeties take the traditional Cover 2 shell by splitting the field in halves deep down the field.

The idea is that our front 7 covers a single gap each, and the defensive linemen go for penetration in order to disrupt the play. With guys like Babs and hopefully Peria Jerry, they are supposed to cause interior disruption in the backfield rather than tie up blockers. You penetrate into the backfield, you blow up the play and throw off timing. While people complain our defense isn't very aggressive, in reality we are simply less aggressive with our back 7 to make up for the fact that our scheme causes for the front 4 to take on an extremely aggressive role. The weakness is that the linemen can be prone to over-pursuit, which things like misdirection, draws, and screens can quickly take advantage of.

Now, because our defensive linemen have to play so aggressively, it can quickly tire them out. This is why TD looks for linemen that have a big burst off the snap, have a non-stop motor(they never stop going), and are very good at changing direction. However, the scheme also requires our linebackers to be very good at shedding blocks. With our linemen trying to shoot their gaps to disrupt the play, this means that the offensive linemen are going to continue to push up field on some plays. If our linebackers aren't agile enough to get away from or shed the block from that linemen that weighs 60+ lbs than him, then we run the risk of giving up an explosive play. Curtis Lofton is known for traditionally being very good at this. He's very good at pursuit, shedding blocks, and wrapping up.

Anything else I can add?

[Radical]

(05-08-2011 06:45 PM)Swift Is a Die Hard Wrote:  yes Weatherspoon position will be WLB , Nicholas played when he was out

Weatherspoon has been playing the Sam LB position most often, with Peterson taking the Will LB. Even though that we want both our OLBs to more or less be mirrors of each other in the scheme, that is where they line up.

[papachaz]

(05-09-2011 01:22 AM)Radical Wrote:  That particular diagram shows a stunt with the defensive tackle bouncing outside and the DE collapsing inside. answers another question i was going to throw in sometime, i've heard 'stunt' a lot but didn't really know what it was.

in our scheme, both of our DTs play the role of a traditional 3 technique DT. They may not line up in that particular area, but they both fit the mold you look for in a good 3 technique DT. 6"2, around 290, "smallish", extremely quick, fast first step, flows well with a play, high motor, etc.
if i remember right, this was supposed to be why they were so high on PJ, his 'explosive first step' with his size is supposed to enable him to get the push up the middle, but then you covered that pretty well below, thanks!

It takes a very special MLB to be able to react quickly enough to read and play the run or drop deep middle and play the pass well. This is why Brian Urlacher is universally viewed as a great LB, because he plays that role so well.
i'm gonna wait about asking stuff about the traditional 'nickel back' role, realizing you can only have 11 guys on the field at a time...but... Lofton isn't known particularly for speed, so is that why we seem to give up a lot of catches over the middle?

in the traditional I-formation, the TE lines up next to the RT while the backs line up directly behind the QB. Although it is a very balanced formation(a bit run oriented though), the fact that the more players are lined up right up center rather than left is what makes the right side the strong side.
not going off topic, but to me that seems backwards, LOL the 'blind side' of the QB being what it is, it would make more sense to me to line the TE over there. i know when we go 2 TE sets that's what we're doing, but without having a SUPER STUD LT, why wouldn't a team just move the TE over there....we'll save that question for a future thread



The idea is that our front 7 covers a single gap each, and the defensive linemen go for penetration in order to disrupt the play. With guys like Babs and hopefully Peria Jerry, they are supposed to cause interior disruption in the backfield rather than tie up blockers. You penetrate into the backfield, you blow up the play and throw off timing. While people complain our defense isn't very aggressive, in reality we are simply less aggressive with our back 7 to make up for the fact that our scheme causes for the front 4 to take on an extremely aggressive role. The weakness is that the linemen can be prone to over-pursuit, which things like misdirection, draws, and screens can quickly take advantage of.

Now, because our defensive linemen have to play so aggressively, it can quickly tire them out. This is why TD looks for linemen that have a big burst off the snap, have a non-stop motor(they never stop going), and are very good at changing direction. However, the scheme also requires our linebackers to be very good at shedding blocks. With our linemen trying to shoot their gaps to disrupt the play, this means that the offensive linemen are going to continue to push up field on some plays. If our linebackers aren't agile enough to get away from or shed the block from that linemen that weighs 60+ lbs than him, then we run the risk of giving up an explosive play. Curtis Lofton is known for traditionally being very good at this. He's very good at pursuit, shedding blocks, and wrapping up.

Anything else I can add?

wow, great post....i'm pleased and impressed with all the answers and responses. i'm going back through and plus one to everyone who's contributing. my whole purpose in this thread was to get you 'knowledge guys' involved in discussions about football.....and this is indeed turning into a good thread. i'm definitely going to try to keep something active each week,

to me, THIS IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING during the offseason. thanks guys

[Radical]

(05-09-2011 12:24 PM)papachaz Wrote:  not going off topic, but to me that seems backwards, LOL the 'blind side' of the QB being what it is, it would make more sense to me to line the TE over there. i know when we go 2 TE sets that's what we're doing, but without having a SUPER STUD LT, why wouldn't a team just move the TE over there....we'll save that question for a future thread

It mainly has to do with the fact that the TE can also be a WR. Since most QBs are right handed, it would make the most sense for the receiver that plays the safety-valve type role on offense most often is well within the QBs field of vision.

On most passing plays though, it should be noted that nothing says the TE has to line up on the right or that both backs have to go out on pass patterns. Being able to pass block is a valuable skill as a back, and something that Turner is relatively good at.

[papachaz]

(05-08-2011 11:21 PM)Penumbra Wrote:  Awesome stuff guys.

And what ya'll did was expose the weaknesses of the scheme Van Gorder and Mike Smith employ.

Placing the pressure on the LBs and the safeties to defend the run is the safe method.

Damn this place has some good stuff.

spend some time reading over on the link drake put in.

the single biggest thing i picked up reading over there was, it don't matter who the coach was, from Bum Phillips, Jimmy Johnson or Arnsbarger, their scheme worked and made them 'the man' when they had the right players..... so this tells us something about what they're (BVG and MS and the scheme) trying to vs trying to do something they still don't have the right personnel for? or could we just say maybe the injuries we've suffered with some of our players has really hindered it that much?