Football Stuff - teach me something 3 technique - 5 technique

[Radical]

Maybe I should get around to that breakdown of our defense I'd been working on last year. Pretty much all your answers are here, not much for me to add. I'll go ahead and throw in this graphic that expands on the "techniques" for linemen.

[papachaz]

(05-08-2011 04:37 AM)FullMetalFalcon23 Wrote:  Papa, maybe you calf talk to the admins about a Football Strategy and Techniques sub forum in here or as a standalone. I've got a ton of information that would HP people understand the game even more in both sides of the ball. From radar blocking, which I think the broncos might pull out if they are serious about re establishing their ground game. To zone blitzing and inverted and rotating coverages

sounds good to me, i've just written a note to an admin, i'm gonna post up a question every week about something, maybe even during TC and the season pick something that happened and get explanations. maybe we could subforum it, but really, it's talk about football. I come here to talk football, learn and interact with other fans. yeah i poke some fun at some from time to time, but i just wanna keep it about football and not about posters egos and who thinks they're the better fan, etc...

jump in FMF23... maybe even put out the opportunity for others to drop me a note and make suggestions on things they want explained.

[papachaz]

(05-08-2011 05:10 AM)Radical Wrote:  Maybe I should get around to that breakdown of our defense I'd been working on last year. Pretty much all your answers are here, not much for me to add. I'll go ahead and throw in this graphic that expands on the "techniques" for linemen.

sure Rad, jump in! i like the diagrams and such. one of my college instructors years ago told me i was too analytical, LOL. but, if i can 'see' it then i got it... part of websters definition of 'see' is 'to begin to know and understand' so seeing something helps me be able to 'see', or understand it. i'm a WHY guy, so i'll ask a lot of, ok i get it, but why? kinda things...
i'm looking forward to discussions and explanations

[Radical]

(05-08-2011 10:09 AM)papachaz Wrote:  sure Rad, jump in! i like the diagrams and such. one of my college instructors years ago told me i was too analytical, LOL. but, if i can 'see' it then i got it... part of websters definition of 'see' is 'to begin to know and understand' so seeing something helps me be able to 'see', or understand it. i'm a WHY guy, so i'll ask a lot of, ok i get it, but why? kinda things...
i'm looking forward to discussions and explanations

Start asking some why questions and I'll answer.

[papachaz]

swift, thanks for the input, so next weeks question/topic we'll make about QB, i had thought about some discussions of mechanics, footwork, etc. but for this week can we keep it on D though? the 3 tech and 5 tech was something that was fresh on my mind hearing it through the draft. so i'll re submit something and you give me your thoughts, since i remember you touched on this in another topic.

the 'is von miller a LB or DE' topic, is there something other than size, IE: abilities, moves (i hear swim move a lot) that would help distinguish, or is VM a LB because of his size.

and i do want sometime pretty quick to get into a discussion with plays and such as to what we can hope/expect to see from the JJ pick, but again, there's so much to talk about, and to help those of us who don't know a lot, it's easier to stay on one topic at a time, thanks, i'm gonna remove the off topic posts to cut out the 'clutter'...

[papachaz]

(05-08-2011 12:36 AM)Beef Wrote:  Here's the best thing I could find to help describe the differences in defensive "techniques". Which is really just a way of explaining how/where they line up vs. an offensive line.





Essentially, if you line up just outside the OT's shoulder, you're a 5-technique. And this is the case with both 4-3 or 3-4 sets.

If you line up straight up with the OG or just outside his shoulder between the OG & The OT, you're a 3-technique. But this is really only possible in a 4-3 set. DE's don't line up that close to each other in 3-4's or they're shooting themselves in the foot handing the OL an easy double-team.

Because we're a 4-3, we have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, & even 6 technique sets. Our DE's are ALWAYS 5-technique and occasionally 6 if the OL has 6 on the line with a TE. Our DT's can play 1, 2, 3, or 4 depending on our shift, which is of course dependent on the play that's called.

And with that knowledge, you should have the answer to question #3. (Basically we're looking for a 5-technique DE to rotate with Biermann )

ok so taking that bold part, who is available in FA, provided there is FA that is a good 5 technique guy we'd want to consider, Edwards ok, Babin i've heard of, anyone else? and the why? based purely on sacks? how much weight do we want to put on other stats? pressures, hurries....not sure i completely 'see' the difference there either. but my point is i've heard tv guy after tv guy and read articles where Kroy got a lot of pressures, hurries, disruptions, etc. But I know from watching the games, he just couldn't get the QB on the ground, why? did he run through his pursuit? was it just poor tackling? there has to be SOMETHING to say 'if he works on this or that' the sack number goes up?

for swift, which DE's in the draft could we have gotten that would really have fit in our scheme, helped, and why?

[Swift Is a Die Hard]

(05-08-2011 04:38 PM)papachaz Wrote:  the 'is von miller a LB or DE' topic, is there something other than size, IE: abilities, moves (i hear swim move a lot) that would help distinguish, or is VM a LB because of his size.

Size only matters is run defense . He could use his undersize to his advantage on passing situations . You cant line up Von Miller at DE for 3 downs cause he will be swallowed up by OTS or pulling guards that will get to 2nd level which is the lbs and that allows big plays ..

Its no coincidence that the best rush defenses are mostly 3-4 teams

Pitt
Jets
SD
Ravens
SF......now making move to 4-3

only team that top that list that doesnt run 3-4 defense is BEARS



Von Miller can add weight but that can take away from his edge rush if he was to add 15 pounds . Von Miller is better suited standing up and rushing the passer like Clay Matthews is doing in GB . You can play these players off the line standing up and to be honest Matthews runs sideline to sideline very well and sheds blockers and solid vs run as well .

We all get on Kroy Bierman about some things while he has potential to be a solid pass rusher he lacks the core strength and size to match up with run . There is a difference when a passing play is called the OT is going backwards in his protection drop so the DE has the momentum and can use his speed or undermove to get to the QB but in a run play the OT is going forward and wants to get off the line ..Now what you dont want from your DE in a run assignment is to lose his GAP or contain or be handled and allow OLINE to get 2nd tier to get a chip on a LB ..

[Swift Is a Die Hard]

(05-08-2011 04:44 PM)papachaz Wrote:  for swift, which DE's in the draft could we have gotten that would really have fit in our scheme, helped, and why?

I wanted a veteran DE ..I want Kiwi or Ray Edwards so I wasnt on the draft a DE bandwagon . I think there are a couple that would have been a upgrade TALENT wise over Bierman a guy like Robert Quin would have been a perfect fit for our scheme . I also think Spags knows DE and that he drafted him only makes me higher on him as a prospect

[papachaz]

(05-08-2011 05:21 PM)Swift Is a Die Hard Wrote:  Size only matters is run defense . He could use his undersize to his advantage on passing situations . You cant line up Von Miller at DE for 3 downs cause he will be swallowed up by OTS or pulling guards that will get to 2nd level which is the lbs and that allows big plays ..

Its no coincidence that the best rush defenses are mostly 3-4 teams

Pitt
Jets
SD
Ravens
SF......now making move to 4-3

only team that top that list that doesnt run 3-4 defense is BEARS



Von Miller can add weight but that can take away from his edge rush if he was to add 15 pounds . Von Miller is better suited standing up and rushing the passer like Clay Matthews is doing in GB . You can play these players off the line standing up and to be honest Matthews runs sideline to sideline very well and sheds blockers and solid vs run as well .

We all get on Kroy Bierman about some things while he has potential to be a solid pass rusher he lacks the core strength and size to match up with run . There is a difference when a passing play is called the OT is going backwards in his protection drop so the DE has the momentum and can use his speed or undermove to get to the QB but in a run play the OT is going forward and wants to get off the line ..Now what you dont want from your DE in a run assignment is to lose his GAP or contain or be handled and allow OLINE to get 2nd tier to get a chip on a LB ..

ok, THAT'S the kind of stuff right there...while i know i see this with my eyes every game, i don't know that I was 'seeing' it, understanding it. that makes sense, one of the questions i had lined up to add in this thread was what you just pointed out, what kept a good pash rusher from being good against the run too, so you just cleared that up, good post. those are the kind of subtle little things that make a difference when watching a game, i never quite figured out why kroy was considered weak against the run, i just figured it he could push the OT back to pass rush, why couldn't he push him back against the run...so thanks

[papachaz]

(05-08-2011 05:30 PM)Swift Is a Die Hard Wrote:  I wanted a veteran DE ..I want Kiwi or Ray Edwards so I wasnt on the draft a DE bandwagon . I think there are a couple that would have been a upgrade TALENT wise over Bierman a guy like Robert Quin would have been a perfect fit for our scheme . I also think Spags knows DE and that he drafted him only makes me higher on him as a prospect

ok i'm with you on getting a FA. i've read how rare it is to get a DE that will make an impact immediately, and how it takes a few years to develop. that said, what makes Edwards or Kiwi your choices? over babin or the others who's names are out there. forget the 'what are the chances we could trade for......" is there enough difference in the players to matter? is that because of the schemes they were in, or their supporting cast of team mates....i guess i'd like to know, which, if either, fits in here with what we do, and would be the best guy to bring in to play on our team.... team being the important word there. won't cry over snaps, too many or few, won't worry about other's contracts....so forth