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hitwriter · 03-15-2012, 02:53 PM

(03-15-2012 12:52 PM)Jesus Wrote: Um Tatupu is 29.

Not to defend anyone in this debate... he still be 30 before the season is over.

illmusic · 03-15-2012, 03:23 PM

(03-15-2012 02:40 PM)monoxide Wrote: It's obvious that we must improve from last year in order to halfway compete this year. From the looks of it, it's very possible that we will lose either Lofton or Abraham. With no free agent signings so far, that's clearly a downgrade. I understand where Mike Nolan comes in, but he can't do it on his own. You can also make the argument about the draft coming up, but it's obvious that without a pick in the top 50, it will clearly help other teams more than us. With this said, there is absolutely no reason to think that we will improve next year. Once again, I can't stress enough that I am not a chicken little pessimist that always looks at the negatives, but unfortunately I haven't seen anything that will drive us deep into the playoffs. When that happens, I will recant immediately. The only thing I want is to see this team succeed, nothing else.

I'm just not one of those people that think we need to make huge moves...our skill positions on offense are solid, elite even. We didn't have a line to let them run havoc, we made a move that upgrades our right guard spot and have time to shore up our left tackle spot. On defense we have a top 3 corner in the league and alot of athletic, fast players who, imo, need better structure and philosophy that they'll get with Nolan. We could get Abe back and still make a move for Mathis at this point, Sidbury isn't a slouch, Bierrmann is a high motor guy that I think still has potential...over all, I don't think everybody on our team is just going to stay stagnant and not grow at all. I expect players to get better, schemes to get better, and depth to continue to become stronger along with some new pieces here and there. We aren't going to make major splashes every year.

Jesus · 03-15-2012, 03:34 PM

(03-15-2012 02:43 PM)monoxide Wrote: Every team you mentioned has either been in or won a Super Bowl in the past 5 years (the Patriots being the exception of not winning one), we haven't won a playoff game.

You are correct.

How many of those teams made a big splash in FA during that time?

FA is not how you build and maintain a winning program. Our issues were not about personnel.

Beef · 03-15-2012, 05:31 PM

(03-15-2012 02:40 PM)monoxide Wrote: It's obvious that we must improve from last year in order to halfway compete this year. From the looks of it, it's very possible that we will lose either Lofton or Abraham. With no free agent signings so far, that's clearly a downgrade. I understand where Mike Nolan comes in, but he can't do it on his own. You can also make the argument about the draft coming up, but it's obvious that without a pick in the top 50, it will clearly help other teams more than us. With this said, there is absolutely no reason to think that we will improve next year. Once again, I can't stress enough that I am not a chicken little pessimist that always looks at the negatives, but unfortunately I haven't seen anything that will drive us deep into the playoffs. When that happens, I will recant immediately. The only thing I want is to see this team succeed, nothing else.

I don't think it's quite the "downgrade" to lose Abe and Lofton like you make it out to be.

Just like Turner made the offense predictable, Abe makes the defense predictable. BVG's defensive schemes were remedial at best. His attempts to be "unpredictable" included dropping Abraham into coverage and making Lofton chase receivers 40 yards down field into the back of the endzone. BVG's idea of a stunt was to move the 3rd string cornerback who's playing nickle up to the line outside the DE and telegraph his QB rush.

When was the last time you saw our DT's block open a hole for our LB's to run up the middle free and clear to the QB? Is that play even in BVG's book?

Abraham was good for 2 plays out of every 4, so when he was in there, the opposing offensive coordinator had an easy time "predicting" what was coming. Especially with the soft-zone shit that our secondary was always in. Offenses didn't have to worry about spreading us out, we were already spread out on our own.

Lofton is a GREAT tackler. But he is not a good pass rusher who finds his way through the line quickly and often gets to the QB. And he is very average at pass coverage, maybe even just bad at it at times when he has to do it outside the box or turn his hips and run with a receiver anywhere.

Mike Nolan is going to come in here with a real NFL caliber defensive scheme and not this BVG college level coservative prevent bullshit. We're going to have younger, faster, more agile players running REAL stunt and blitz packages that aren't predictable. We're going to put defensive backs closer to receivers and force QB's to hold on to that football that extra second that they didn't have to do before because they're receivers always appeared wide open.

And on top of all this, even if we end up still being an average at best defense, who cares. The Pats, Packers, and Saints are considered the 3 most elite teams in the NFL and each of them had a BOTTOM 5 defense last year. Hell even the Giants had a bottom 10 defense and won the SB after a 9-7 season.

We have elite talent all over this team. Roddy, Julio, Gonzo, Turner, Ryan, Spoon, Grimes, Moore.... And with new coordinators who have polar-opposite reputations from MM & BVG, who are known for being the opposite of predictable, conservative, and pedestrian, might just bring out the hidden gems in guys like Quizz, HD, Robinson, Sidbury, Dent, Nicholas, and Franks.

We made our big splash this year. It was Grimes, Keotter, and Nolan.

**Radical** · 03-15-2012, 05:39 PM

Yes, losing Lofton and Abe without real viable replacements would be a downgrade. Your logic is the equivalent to saying in 2010 that we should get rid of Roddy because we went to him the vast majority of the time. We leaned on those players because they were the best we had, so the answer is to take pressure off of them by getting better players and adapting schematically.

Beef · 03-15-2012, 05:59 PM

(03-15-2012 05:39 PM)Radical Wrote: Yes, losing Lofton and Abe without real viable replacements would be a downgrade. Your logic is the equivalent to saying in 2010 that we should get rid of Roddy because we went to him the vast majority of the time. We leaned on those players because they were the best we had, so the answer is to take pressure off of them by getting better players and adapting schematically.

That is not my logic at all.

Roddy can do every facet of his position at an elite level. Run routes, catch, and block. Abe and Lofton cannot.

Abe disappears for entire games all the time. He'll have stretches where he gets 4 sacks in a single game or 5 QB disruptions and a FF, but then he'll do nothing at all for 3 of the next 4. And, you have to keep him at a low snap count and hope he doesn't get injured.

Lofton is great on running downs. And that's it.

I'm sorry, but being great at getting around OT's and hitting QB's 6 out of 16 games and being an incredible asset only when the other team runs does not make them as great for this team as everyone thinks. In fact, it might just be detrimental to the overall scheme to always have to play around their deficiencies.

As Nolan stated, he'd rather have 10 guys who get 4 sacks each than 4 who get 10 sacks each.

I'd rather have 11 guys on defense who play just above average at every facet of their position than have 11 guys who are elite at only 1 out of the 3 facets that their position requires.

If Nolan can get Sidbury, Biermann, Edwards, Nicholas, Dent, and Tatupu to be above average at pass rush, stopping the run, and any form of limited pass coverage they might do, i'll take that over just the one great thing Abe and Lofton can each offer.

juraitwaluzka · 03-15-2012, 06:04 PM

(03-15-2012 05:31 PM)Beef Wrote: We made our big splash this year. It was Grimes, Keotter, and Nolan.

That's exactly how I see it. In fact I'd bet that if we do nothing else we will be better defensively than if we would've kept BVG and signed Mario. I really believe that at best the BVG scheme did no favors to the players' cause.

GaRoadHog · 03-15-2012, 07:55 PM

(03-15-2012 05:59 PM)Beef Wrote: That is not my logic at all.

Roddy can do every facet of his position at an elite level. Run routes, catch, and block. Abe and Lofton cannot.

Abe disappears for entire games all the time. He'll have stretches where he gets 4 sacks in a single game or 5 QB disruptions and a FF, but then he'll do nothing at all for 3 of the next 4. And, you have to keep him at a low snap count and hope he doesn't get injured.

Lofton is great on running downs. And that's it.

I'm sorry, but being great at getting around OT's and hitting QB's 6 out of 16 games and being an incredible asset only when the other team runs does not make them as great for this team as everyone thinks. In fact, it might just be detrimental to the overall scheme to always have to play around their deficiencies.

As Nolan stated, he'd rather have 10 guys who get 4 sacks each than 4 who get 10 sacks each.

I'd rather have 11 guys on defense who play just above average at every facet of their position than have 11 guys who are elite at only 1 out of the 3 facets that their position requires.

If Nolan can get Sidbury, Biermann, Edwards, Nicholas, Dent, and Tatupu to be above average at pass rush, stopping the run, and any form of limited pass coverage they might do, i'll take that over just the one great thing Abe and Lofton can each offer.

I agree with this. I'm good with our D. A lot of Abe's stats came against lesser offenses as well. We haven given up 3rd and long too many times the last two years. We hold or get loss of yards first two downs but what good is that if you can't stop a 10-15 yard pass when you know it's coming. A new scheme may make up for not having Lofton.

I'd rather see major improvement on our OL either by FA, Trade or draft. I do have a question though. Can you trade up in the draft with a combo of pick(s) and player(s)? For example we trade into first to get OL help and give a draft pick and a current player or two in return. Just thinking out loud....

cnasty · 03-15-2012, 08:18 PM

Every single player's ceiling will rise due to our coordinator hirings. I think it'd be hard to argue that Mularkey and BVG were a significant handicap on what we were able to do as a team in 2011. Sans the trenches (in some spots), we have some incredible athletes all over the field. We still have some DEs who have shown promise in the past Sid and hopefully Biermann. Edwards was injured basically all of last season and Babs certainly didn't look like himself. Peters gets a year older with a new DC, same w/DeCoud (who will be far better under Nolan). Our OL woes could easily be attributed to youth, injuries and a lack of offseason. Bring in Pat Hill, a full offseason and a maybe even a healthy Sam fucking Baker (playing with an injury for most of last season) and we will surely see improvement. Who knows,though? Personally, I don't see our lack of outrageous, knee-jerk moves as a sign that we are heading to the bottom of the division. That's just me though.

***phocis850*** · 03-15-2012, 08:41 PM

(03-15-2012 08:18 PM)cnasty Wrote: Every single player's ceiling will rise due to our coordinator hirings. I think it'd be hard to argue that Mularkey and BVG were a significant handicap on what we were able to do as a team in 2011.

That's the thing. How do we know it will be better with Nolan and Koetter?