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RnB · 01-19-2012, 06:57 AM

(01-19-2012 05:37 AM)ggp Wrote: Baker:
I read somewhere that Baker will save us $500k in cap space if we dump him. That is not much savings, cosidering that Baker is, at the least, an experienced back up at LT. Look, I know he has sucked, but there have been issues with his health. I don't know the true story about him, but if injuries have set him back AND he is over them, then he should return. At the very least, invite him to camp and see what he can do. If his health holds out, he could be a very good RT and a reliable back up at LT. That is worth more than $500k.

Fuck Sam Baker. He had his chance and I am tired of standing up for him. This season proved to me that he is not a "franchise" LT. I don't care if its because of his injury problems, a mental thing, or any other reason; he is taking up a roster spot and was outperformed by an average (thats grossly exaggerating) backup OLineman.

Turner:
Turner will count about $5million against the cap next season. He has been tremendous and I am not hating on him. I am simply looking at the odds, and not liking them. RB's of his size and running style usually do not last long. Of course there are exceptions, but they don't come around very often. The last exception, that I can recall was Jerome Bettis.

Koetter plans to move to a more sophisticated passing attack. That will require at least three reliable receivers and a committee of RB's that can catch the ball well and pass protect. Both Snelling and Rodgers are better receivers than Turner and both will come with a lower price tag.

If given the carries, I believe that the combination will garner the same (and possibly better) yards per carry than Turner. MT averaged something like 4.1 yards per carry (I think). He averaged about 80 yards and 20 touches per game. His per carry average was markedly improved by the occaisional break out long run. That has been his calling card. Turner the burner has always been a big play threat. However, with time, we can all expect that part of his game to diminish. When? I don't know, but I would rather put our money on an improved OL than a possibly declining RB.

I respect all of those that disagree. I know how good he has been. I am just trying to project how he will fit into our offense for the next three seasons. And, I think the team can put its cap space to better use.

No way would I sign off on dropping our two time all pro, 1300+ yards every season, superstar of a running back. He showed this season that he can do very well catching the football. Trying to say his YPC is inflated due to "explosive" plays is fucking retard logic. He put up those numbers with a terrible OL all year and without our all pro FB for the majority of the year. The fact is, he is one of the top three RBs in the NFL, has only gotten a high number of carries for four seasons, and very rarely misses games due to injury. There is absolutely NO justification for not keeping Turner as an integral part of our offense going forward. None.

Abe:
This is the toughest call for me. I admit that I may be wrong. The only problem that I see with Abe is that he is not on the field often enough to warrant big money. I think that Robert Mathis would be a better value going forward. Of course, if Mario Williams is a realistic option, then he would be the priority acquisition to make.

No way would I sign off on letting Abe walk. Period.

Weems:
Eric Weems is a decent return specialist (don't underestimate his decision making) but he has become a phenomenal gunner as well. He is often the first guy down field on punts and kick offs and he frequently alters opposing returners' plans. I'd like to keep him for his overall ST value.

I agree that Weems is a keeper. His ST play, outside of occassionally making poor decisions (letting balls hit the turf), is top notch. He is not a very good receiver but can fill in if necessary without too much drop off. This should be a no-brainer.

Bell:
His injury history is of great concern. That has to be clarified. If there is any question about his health, then he should be scratched off the list. One has to be suspicious about the availability of a quality LT in free agency. I threw his name into the mix to create a little rhetoric.
Our OL needs improvement. When all is said and done, I think that Nicks and Grubbs will return to their present teams.

Yes, we need a stud LT. Whether that is a FA (most likely), a draft miracle, or letting someone already on the roster not named Svitek/Baker give it a shot; we need a couple stud OLinemen, the priority being at LT. I don't think this guy is it, mainly due to what you said about his "staying on the field" issue.

Polar Bear Jones · 01-19-2012, 07:21 AM

Bell is ok but I really want Gaither. I hope Decoud will do better under Nolan but I know Gholdson would he has a connection to Nolan. I know we can do better than Weems at return man there is a deep WR class in freeagency I may look to upgrade the slot position to add another Redzone threat. Not really on Mathis I like Mincey and Super Mario more. I am thinking Vernon Carey could be a cheaper option at guard that would be an upgrade and then we let Hawley and Mike Johnson battle it out at center.

ggp · (This post was last modified: 01-19-2012 10:01 AM by ggp.)

No way would I sign off on dropping our two time all pro, 1300+ yards every season, superstar of a running back. He showed this season that he can do very well catching the football. Trying to say his YPC is inflated due to "explosive" plays is fucking retard logic. He put up those numbers with a terrible OL all year and without our all pro FB for the majority of the year. The fact is, he is one of the top three RBs in the NFL, has only gotten a high number of carries for four seasons, and very rarely misses games due to injury. There is absolutely NO justification for not keeping Turner as an integral part of our offense going forward. None.

OK RnB, let's take it one bit at a time.

He showed this season that he can do very well catching the football.

He showed that he can actually catch a football but he stumbled around and barely gained any yardage after the catch. Receiving is the weakest part of his game. In no way can we say that he did very well.

Trying to say his YPC is inflated due to "explosive" plays is fucking retard logic.

Under normal circumstances, I would agree with you 100%. However, we are talking about an aging, 242lb RB. What are the chances that he will keep his speed? This year is was his groin, next year what will it be? We have to face facts, RB's do not get healthier with age and they don't get faster. Without the compliment of his big runs, in the future, Turner will find it difficult to make his numbers.

He put up those numbers with a terrible OL all year and without our all pro FB for the majority of the year.

It's true, Turner runs great behind Ovie. The tandem is potent. What makes you think we will be using a Full Back anymore? Koetter is all about one back and four receivers. We have the ability to line up White, Jones, Douglas and Gonzalez, why pull one of them off the field for Ovie?

There is absolutely NO justification for not keeping Turner as an integral part of our offense going forward. None.

Let me restate what you wrote, from my point of view. There is absolutely no indication, to date, that Turner can not continue to be a power runner for several more years. Yes, Michael Turner will continue to be a powerful RB. He plays through pain and is a certifiable sledge hammer. The trouble is this: The Falcons are moving to a different offense. They plan to use their cerebral QB to dissect secondaries. They plan to spread the ball to several targets. They want RB's that can run between the tackles but that can provide the added wrinkle of catching the ball and gaining significant yardage.

We are changing. With change comes a readjustment of our goals and philosophies. RnB, I have read your posts many times, and I agree with most of what you write. We both believe in the fundamental axiom: The game is won and lost in the trenches. To that end, we should focus on improving our OL.....no matter what. Due to the budgetary restraints imposed on every team, we need to cut the cost of our RB's and shift that money to the OL. With an improved OL, we can keep a less expensive and younger stable of RB's. Who is to say that neither Snelling nor Rodgers can rack up 1300 yards behind an improved OL?

I do not see the justification of keeping Turner and his $5million cap space. If we can trade Turner, we probably should. There should be teams that want MT for the very same reasons that you have outlined. I say trade him, while he still has some value. Now is the time to build a seriously good OL.

juraitwaluzka · 01-19-2012, 10:19 AM

It's a gamble, you want to keep a guy long enough but not too long, there's definitely an art to it. Look no further than Shaun Alexander for how quickly things can change.

Paprika Neck · 01-19-2012, 10:57 AM

(01-19-2012 12:55 AM)Radical Wrote: Don't see why we keep Sam Baker, at all. He's a failure at any and every position he's ever started at.

he was a 3 time all american in college bro that's winning. unfortunately since that jr year he can't get over injuries so now can't progress, sad shit really. he could've been HOF with matt ryan has his qb.

RnB · 01-19-2012, 11:15 AM

(01-19-2012 09:59 AM)ggp Wrote: OK RnB, let's take it one bit at a time.

**snip**

I completely understand why you think it is a good idea to trade him. What I am saying is that his salary is not going to stop us from upgrading our OL, we have tons of cap space. I am not sure how much longer Turner is signed for but we should keep him until we are absolutely forced to let him go. We have Quizz, another great RB, for a long time with a minimal cap hit. We could also re-sign Snelling for pretty cheap. That gives us plenty of options at the RB spot without shooting ourselves in the foot by getting rid of the most consistent player on our team for the past FOUR YEARS.

As far as your talk of not using a fullback with Dirk, I will believe it when I see it. Ovie is too valuable of an asset to not put him to use. Based on what your opinion of Turner is, you might as well talk about trading/cutting Ovie too. I think you are wrong, plain and simple. Dirk will use the best weapons we have in his offensive scheme. I hate to break it to you but we have a VERY good TE and a VERY good FB that will see playing time regardless of how much Dirk likes to use 4 Wide sets. We won't be in that package 100% of the time, are you serious? The bottom line is that Dirk is not going to blow up our offense that has ranked in the top 10 in many categories for four straight years. He even said in his conference call that he WILL use the things that our offense, and players, are very good at within his scheme.

Turner is not on the decline, no matter how much people try to say it. There is no proof. People have been saying the same thing ever since 2009 and it is simply not true. He has a relatively fresh body due to him being a backup before he joined our team. Yes, his groin has given him issues but it was only significantly apparent one season out of four. Furthermore, gambling that THIS year Turner hits the RB wall is just fucking silly. I promise you that the last thing on any of our coach's minds, or more importantly TD's mind, is getting rid of Turner.

Trade or cut Michael Turner to save some cap space? Yeah right, hell will freeze over before that happens.

ggp · 01-19-2012, 11:18 AM

(01-19-2012 10:57 AM)Paprika Neck Wrote: he was a 3 time all american in college bro that's winning. unfortunately since that jr year he can't get over injuries so now can't progress, sad shit really. he could've been HOF with matt ryan has his qb.

I doubt he will ever be a football legend. However, he could be a very good back up or a good RT. I don't want to throw him out for so little cap space. Let's see what he can do in training camp.

And, it wouldn't hurt to shave the Amish beard. If I were his dad, I'd tell him to spend less time tending to his facial hair and more time working his core.

Paprika Neck · 01-19-2012, 11:26 AM

he needs at least a full season off where he just focuses on becoming 1. healthy 2. stronger 3. more athletic.

Templar · 01-19-2012, 02:19 PM

I'm on the fence with Turner. I think he still has gas left in the tank, and I also think that some of the issues he had this season were due to the OL not being able to open a hole for him. I also think this same issue is where some of his apparent hesitance stemmed from. I can only imagine what it must be like to be headed for where a hole is supposed to be, get the ball and see that there are nothing but defenders where you were planning to go.

All that being said, I would like to see him drop about 10-15 lbs, but not just by dieting, but by training to drop body fat. I think at 225 to 230 lbs, at 8-12 % body fat, Turner would not only regain some of his explosiveness, but perhaps become even more dangerous, provided that Koetter's schemes and new OL personnel can open some holes.

ggp · 01-19-2012, 04:41 PM

When I think about Michael Turner, I have two questions:

1. When will Turner's age betray him? He will be thirty years old in a month. In case you haven't noticed, MT is not a wheat grass sort of guy like Gonzo. He has significant fat on his body and is a low risk to last much longer as a featured RB. He is a power back that weighs over 240 lbs. He has over a thousand carries under his belt, as a Falcon. The music is running out on his prime. I don't think the Falcons want to be holding his contract when the music stops. When you have a player that will count 7.5 million against the cap (5million in salary), you had'd better feel confident that you have a full time player for the entire season.

2. Are Turner's skills an ideal fit in our new offensive scheme? We don't know a lot about Koetter, but we know that he was brought to this team to make better use of our talented WR corp. Koetter likes one back sets and he likes to line up three to four receivers. How many carries will Turner get? Certainly not as many as he has had. Is he a threat in the passing game? I don't think that he is more of a threat than any Full Back in the league. So, I wonder just how indispensable Turner will be going forward.

By trading or dropping him, you free up $5million in cap space. That is a sizeable chunk of change that can go towards a free agent of sustainable impact. Let's say we go after Nicks or some LT Free Agent. Were will the cap space come from? Not from our QB. Not from the rest of the OL. Not from our TE. Not from our WR's. It has to come from the RB corp. I think Turner is the odd man out.